I Have A Problem With 3E

1. Multiclassing
Disagree...if someone wants to be "ok" at 5 different jobs, that's fine with me. In real life I've know people who had a multitude of different, unrelated talents, so why not in game? I often make multi-classing even less restrictive. In my opinion, the only thing wrong with multi-classing is that it is too disfavorable to casters.

2. Free Metamagic
Considering how much spell casters have been watered down over the years...I don't have a problem with this. In 1st ed a Fireball from a 15th level magic-user did 15d6 and people stopped gaining hit points at 8-10th level. Now a 15th level wizard has a 10d6 fireball which is easy to save against and the target will have MANY more hit points.

3. Synergy
You're the GM...just say no, I do.

4. Two-Handed Weapons
I disallow animated shields and bucklers. But, I think dual-wielding needs to be more attractive. If the right feats are taken though, sword and board is very effective.

5. Balancing Per Encounter Instead of Per Day
I totally ignore the advice for balancing my game and do it my way.

6. Neverending Buffs
Not an issue, as long as encounters are adjusted for the characters actual power level with these taken into account, it's fine.

7. Combat Expertise and Power Attack
The game could use a bit of complication here and there. It's still very "simple" compared to many other combat systems.

8. Point Buy
Agree completely...if I wanted point buy, I'd play Heroes (Champions).

9. Rerolls
Rerolls aren't that common, I'm ok with it. They still have to decide when/how to use their rerolls...and it can prevent one bad die roll from killing a campaign.

10. Magic Item Creation
I like reducing Magic Item Creation costs if "special" components are used.

Cedric
 

log in or register to remove this ad

1. Multiclassing
Each class "taken" after 1st level should be treated as a prestige class with prerequisites. Casually "taking" (I hate that term to learning new classes) should not be permitted.


4. Two-Handed Weapons
I've always thought it silly that using a weapon two-handed gives a 1.5 strength bonus to damage. Two-handed weapons already do more damage in the form of larger base die.

Somewhat related: I've become convinced that strength bonuse should apply only to attack rolls, not damage rolls (penetrating armor).
 

1. Multiclassing
I'm lukewarm on multi-classing, especially the 3E version. Easy multi-classing sometimes tends to encourage "salad-bar syndrome." I prefer to use a single class that represents the character concept (I like classes). Al Krombach's system is a good example of my favored approach.

2. Free Metamagic
Agree. With metamagic, I tend to fall into the "just make a new spell" school of thought, anyway.

3. Synergy
Agree. More salad-bar syndrome fodder, here. Fortunately, as the DM, you're free to allow or deny whatever you like. (You just need to be willing to weather any accusations of being a neanderthal, option-limiting DM.)

I'm cool on feats, as a system, too. I tend to see a feat system as a set of artificial restrictions (can't do that unless you have the feat...) that are presented as the illusion of more options.

4. Two-Handed Weapons
I don't have a big problem with the rules for two-handed weapons. However, if "floating shields" are ubiquitous, that would make me raise an eyebrow.

5. Balancing Per Encounter Instead of Per Day
Agree.

6. Neverending Buffs
Agree. I like the material component solution.

7. Combat Expertise and Power Attack
These are good examples of feats that I don't like. I don't like the fact that you need to pick the feat in order to swing really hard, sacrificing accuracy for power. I think just about anyone should be able to do that, and the DM can rule as appropriate.

As far as complication goes, I think your flat bonus/penalty solution is a decent compromise, although, again, I'd prefer to just let the DM handle it. (The ultimate in simplfying this would be to make it abstract, and put it into the BAB. :p)

8. Point Buy
Agree. I can see point buy for a tournament game, but other than that, I'm "Roll Ability Scores" all-the-way.

9. Rerolls
Agree. I don't like the concept of re-rolls. I prefer modifiers to the single roll as representations of increased luck, skill, et cetera.

10. Magic Item Creation
I'd don't have a big problem with XP for magic item creation. That said, I'm a big fan of allowing special material components, recipes, et cetera, to "stand-in" for XP, or lower the XP cost.
 
Last edited:


FireLance said:
6. Neverending Buffs
Another possibility is for clerics and other spellcasters to have a special buff slot so that they can only keep one buff active at a time. If they cast multiple buff spells, they just get the option of switching out one buff for another as the situation demands it (swift action). Another possibility is to limit the number of buffs affecting a character and his equipment.

I really like this idea. I think a character with a single buff in effect is fine. Multiple simultaneous buffs is too videogamey for me (not that I haven't done it; I just want someone to save me from myself). If you did have a single-buff limit, it's probably reasonable to go back to the 3.0 durations, maybe even increase their power level a bit beyond that. And maybe add in a feat to enable you to hold a second buff (maybe only applying to spells up to a set level), so that it's something special that comes at a cost.
 

airwalkrr said:
1. Multiclassing
AD&D was too strict. 3rd edition is too permissive. In AD&D you couldn't change professions unless you were human; that was a problem. In 3rd edition you can't help but change professions many times, including certain prestigious professions; this is also a problem.
Potential Solution: There needs to be a significant drawback to multiclassing while keeping it viable. Currently, the only drawback (XP penalty) is easily circumvented. Even when it isn't avoided, XP loss isn't fun.
I control multiclassing with in-character rationale. I don't let someone who has been a citybound wizard all of their lives just up and take a level of barbarian. I actually have fairly detailed, class by class houserules in place for multiclassing. Does that make me a draconian DM? I hope not, and none of my players have complained...
2. Free Metamagic
Metamagic as an idea is great. But there is a reason the designers gave it an opportunity cost in the form of a higher level spell slot. Wizards were not meant to maximize fireballs at 5th level and clerics weren't meant to chain greater magic weapon at 7th level. The current trend of metamagic rods, sudden metamagic feats, and other "free" metamagic effects gives spellcasters too much power.
Potential Solution: I think this aspect just needs to be removed from the game. Metamagic is fine. "Free" metamagic is not.
I agree here - "instant" metamagic is way too powerful, and standard metamagic is too weak/restrictive...there needs to be some kind of middle ground...
3. Synergy
I'm not talking about synergy bonuses from skills. I am talking about unintended consequences of mixing and matching sourcebooks. For example, if a dread necromancer (Heroes of Horror) takes the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat (Libris Mortis), he gets unlimited healing. Taken separately, neither of these abilities is overpowered. Taken together, they have synergy that is far greater than the power of their individual components, likely an oversight because the books had different development teams.
Potential Solution: Allow each player access to one sourcebook ONLY outside of the three core rulebooks. This prevents most forms of synergy. Of course it reduces player options so it is not an ideal solution.
This definitely falls into the realm of DM decision - if you feel that certain classes, feats etc. combine in an unbalanced way, most reasonable players will accept no as an answer. And as has been pointed out, if players insist on being allowed to combine whatever they want to, the DM is free to do the same for the villains.
4. Two-Handed Weapons
Because of the double bonus from Power Attack, floaty shields, and more beneficial Strength modifier, two-handed weapon wielders have become the staple of melee combat. Forgive me, but this is trite. Two-weapon fighters and sword-and-board style have become comparatively worthless relics in the game.
Potential Solution: (and this is vague) The game needs to support multiple fighting styles by providing viable options for each that don't heavily overshadow the others. Player's Handbook 2 goes a long way towards rectifying this problem, but I don't know if it goes far enough.
I semi-agree. Perhaps 1.5x for 2 handed Power Attacks would be better...
5. Balancing Per Encounter Instead of Per Day
This is a horrible idea because it propagates the notion that the world conforms itself to the power level of the player characters. Some encounters are meant to be tougher, and those encounters require greater resources. Others are meant to be more menial and require fewer resources. Properly gauging the difficulty of an encounter and balancing your resources is part of the strategy of D&D. Leave "per encounter" balancing in MMORPGs and keep D&D a strategic game, like it was meant to be. Or at least publish two versions.
Potential Solution: (another vague one) Characters should not be able to use their most powerful abilities without limit.
In general, I really don't like the whole CR/encounters per day system at all. I basically ignore it, using common sense and random encounter tables. I know this is an unpopular view these days, but a CR table is no subtitute for a DM designing and running encounters as he sees fit. Also, some playewrs seem to take the CR system to mean they should never flee, surrender or negotiate their way out of an encounter - there is some kind of expectation that the CR system will assure them success by brute force alone, in every case...
6. Neverending Buffs
Yet another thing that removes an element of strategy from the game. Clerics are particularly fond of these. Spells like magic vestment, greater magic weapon, and heroes' feast are virtual must-haves for clerics because they last practically all day, especially with extend spell. "Forget situational spells. Just memorize the ones that keep you perpetually powered-up!" That's bland.
Potential Solution: Reduce durations of spells like this, or add costly material or XP costs to reduce their frequency of use.
I don't like the heavy reliance on buffs that 3E seems to promote, but seeing as it is an entrenched part of the game, I'm happy to live with it, so long as players realise that their opponents will likely use the same tactics...
7. Combat Expertise and Power Attack
These kinds of feats make the game a bit too complicated because of the constant calculation required. A 10th-level fighter with Power Attack has 11 attack options representing the various penalties he can take. A 10th-level fighter with Power Attack AND Combat Expertise has 66 attack options! And he is expected to quickly decide which course of action is best?
Potential Solution: Simplify these kinds of feats with a flat penalty and flat bonus. The decision for the player then becomes merely to use it or not.
I see this as more of a symptom of a general problem rather than specific to these two feats. Combat simply has too many options in the current edition, which bogs down gameplay and often requires extensive calculations and recalculations. Throw in Total Defense, Aid Another, Flanking, Concealment, the ever popular AoO etc etc and a relatively simple combat can suddenly become and excercise in number crunching and constant flipping through rulebooks. Is there an answer to this? Not that I can see - I guess it's a neccessary evil, to get the flexibility of combat options...
8. Point Buy
As if we needed more excuses for players to focus on character creation as opposed to actually playing the game. The world isn't that fair. I don't know why we would expect our characters to be "equal" either (as if that ideal were even possible). Besides, it ruins the excitement of rolling up a really nice set of scores.
Potential Solution: Roll ability scores.
Unless we are playing a one shot or tournament module, my group never, NEVER, uses point buy or arrays. To me, rolling up a character is the quintessential heart of the D&D experience. Point buy is just way too "CCG/computer gamey" for my tastes...(again, I realise this is just a personal opinion, and a lot of people disagree)...
9. Rerolls
Various class abilities that allow rerolls greatly reduce the amount of chance in the game. You aren't likely to roll very many 1s during a game session, and if you have one or two reroll abilities (luck domain, luck blade, fatespinner, etc.) you don't need to worry about them. As long as your character is powerfully built, you will almost never need to worry about pesky automatic failures. Additionally, these abilities are greater still in the hands of NPCs, who only usually need them for one battle.
Potential Solution: Don't allow rerolls to change the result of automatic successes or failures.
I honestly can't see this as that much of problem, unless a charatcer has an exceptionally high amount of reroll devices...
10. Magic Item Creation
It costs XP to make magic items. So my character unlearns things for succeeding at a task. How on earth does that make sense?
Potential Solution: Just drop the XP cost for magic item creation. It already costs your character a feat. Or make the creation of magic items difficult by requiring rare components that must be quested for.
Magic item creation is probably the part of 3E I dislike the most. Adventurers adventure - they shouldn't be sitting on a production line churning out items for the party, IMHO. IMC, item creation is basically the way it was in 2E - something underatken by high level, semi-retired spellcasters...
 
Last edited:

Wow, I guess this shows how there's no "one perfect system" for everybody, because most of the things you're complaining about I would count as bonuses.

Multiclassing
If anything, Multiclassing should be easier. Remove the penalty entirely, and remove the false idea that "class = character". If I'm playing a "Azure Legion-trained former soldier", that doesn't have to mean "Fighter" - get creative and go beyond class labels. And if a combination of multiple classes suits the character concept better, then go for it without hesitation.

Free Metamagic
Certainly some of these methods are less than balanced. Metamagic rods, in particular, come to mind. However, I'm all for having different ways to "pay" for metamagic.

Synergy
This is a big part of the fun, IMO. It adds creativity and challenge to character creation.

Two-Handed Weapons
Animated shields may be somewhat problematic, but the feats from PHB II go a long way toward making the other options more viable.

Per-Encounter Balance
We need a lot more of this, not less. Why? Because it gives you the freedom to have more or less than four encounters per day without throwing off balance. And because even if you're willing to always go 4/day, the players are likely to prefer resting when they run low - or sometimes continuing on when they really shouldn't.

Buffs
There really aren't that many long duration ones anymore, and why shouldn't there be a few? It gives more variety in spell use if some spells are long-term and some last one battle only.

Combat Expertise and Power Attack
Fighters need something to do besides "I attack", and these feats give them some much needed versatility and tactical fun.

Point Buy
You can already roll ability scores - why is it a problem that other people may choose to do things differently?

Rerolls
I honestly can't see this being a problem, unless you're hell-bent on defeating the PCs via dozens of saving throws.

Magic Item Creation
Investing life force for permanent effects is a venerable fantasy concept. While there could certainly be alternatives such as questing for rare components, I wouldn't call this a bad system.
 

1. Multiclassing

My solutions for multiclassing are too drastic, but I think prestige classes can fairly easily be fixed by significantly limiting them per campaign or by background.

2. Free Metamagic

I think casters should be able to use spell slots to power metamagics. For example, a maximized fireball would require a 3rd level slot and a 4th level slot. This would free the caster up for metamagicking high level spells and give casters something to do with low level slots as they become higher level. I also think heightened spell should be default without a feat. If you memorize a fireball in a 5th level slot it should act as a 5th level spell no matter what. Then, of course, remove the free metamagic abilities.

3. Synergy

I really like the idea of limiting each character to one extra book. That's a really elegent and simple way of keeping power levels in check but letting players pick which options they want.

4. Two-Handed Weapons

I don't think freely fighting with any two weapons SHOULD be very effective. I think granting specific special abilities to certain combinations would add alot of flavor and add bonuses sorely needed. Parrying dagger in offhand for extra AC, net and trident combos, etc. Heroes of Battle had some of these but I think most of them should be free without a feat.

Sword and board I think should get better the better the character is at fighting. Shield could grant an additional +1 AC for extra attack the character's BAB grants them. Or it could be more active, allowing an immediate +5 bonus against an attack by giving up an extra attack the next round (one of those sub-+5 attacks that is unlikely to be very effective against high AC opponents). I can think of a half dozen variants on this theme, but generally I think the higher the BAB the better the shield should get.

5. Balancing Per Encounter Instead of Per Day

The problem with per day abilities is that it works terribly for a significant minority of the gaming groups out there who don't follow the dictates of encounters per day. I think a mix of the two is appropriate and should be extended to all classes.

6. Neverending Buffs

I also think these are a good idea. By investing a spell slot many of these abilities (I think) should be permanent until dismissed (freeing up the spell slot the next time the character memorizes spells).

7. Combat Expertise and Power Attack

I think this can be rectified by those players creating a little table of attack bonuses/damage bonuses. Then they can guage immediately (I want to attack with a +15 so I get a ... +26 to damage).

8. Point Buy

But this and hp is the only aspect of the game that has random lifetime effects. It really doesn't sit well with the rest of the game and is more an artifact of older editions. Personally I like things like Divine spell failure and fizzled spells, but most people would rather like to think of their characters as a set of actions that have generally known consequences. Point buy does this.

9. Rerolls

On the other hand a reroll is totally in sync with the idea of the luck domain... You can always keep out things like the luckblade, etc.

10. Magic Item Creation

I sort of agree. But then you have the staple of pouring one's own energy into one's creation thus diminishing the creator but augmenting the whole. The One Ring comes to mind very prominently. Sauron was alot weaker after he made the One Ring, but with the ring he was more powerful.
 

IceFractal said:
Wow, Multiclassing
If anything, Multiclassing should be easier. Remove the penalty entirely, and remove the false idea that "class = character". If I'm playing a "Azure Legion-trained former soldier", that doesn't have to mean "Fighter" - get creative and go beyond class labels. And if a combination of multiple classes suits the character concept better, then go for it without hesitation.

I agree. But I also don't think that an Azure Legion-trained former soldier Prestige Class needs to be created (unless there are very specific reasons why this may be).
 

Psion,

My "meaningful" corrolation is that point buy to me is avoiding a rock falling on you whereas general dice conventions (note I said GENERAL), often lead to, yes you guessed it, falling rocks.

Now it might be a logical fallacy on my part, but I'm basing my belief on what I've witnessed myself with my friend's characters over the past 15+ years of playing D&D and other games as well where dice rolls determined outcomes, attributes and other character things.
 

Remove ads

Top