• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

I Have A Problem With 3E

Man in the Funny Hat said:
No I don't believe you. There are 3 ways to die in D&D. In direct combat, old age, and disease/non-combat injury. I've gamed since '76 over many editions and I submit that 99% of all characters die in combat, and that has NOTHING to do with the method of ability score generation.

Sorry but I disagree. If you have a weak con score (and this is true back in the days when people had like Neg -3) it doesn't help that much when you take damage.

Same is true when it's back to the old "save or die" spells, effects and other things. I just don't see that combat being 99%. 75% certainly, possibly as high as 85%. But in between there are save and die effects, effects that can permanent disable if not outright disperse a character from play. (Recalls the one time my friend tried to ignore a power check in a Ravenloft game, ended up a pawn of the Dark Powers and had to get a new character.)
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I don't like all the CR stuff because we've got 5 stats where one will do. It overcomplicates the game where at the endof the day all we want to know is how many XP, and if it's playable as a PC race. I'm sure there are simpler, less convoluted systems out there than what we currently have.

That said, CR /is/ as good as measure as any when it comes to assessing the challenge. We usually game where the CRs are 3 or 4 higher than the APL and that works for us. If the CR=APL it's just not a challenge.

As you say, for new players, maybe, but not experienced gamers.

Really? Good grief, if I go EL+4, I wipe the floor with my parties. I'm averaging 1 PC death every 3 to 4 sessions and by and large the encounters are actually under powered considering I have 6 PC's. How the heck are your PC's blasting through encounters that difficult? If what you say is true, then the fault isn't in the game I'm afraid. It might be time to start brushing up on a bit of combat tactics and the like.

The only other bit that really catches my eye is point buy. I loathe die rolling PC's anymore. IME, every time die rolled characters come out, everyone cheats. I know, you reading this personally never, ever do, but, everyone I've ever played with, myself included starts to whine about this or that stat.

There's a reason elite stats bump CR by 1. Stats MATTER. Bumping a fighter's strength by 4, Con by 2 and Dex by 2 is essentially the same as giving him a bonus level, complete with weapon specialization. 4 points in a character is about 16000 gp worth of stat boost items.

You'd never dream of letting players start 1 level higher or start with that much starting gold at first level. Why is it perfectly acceptable to let them get it through random die rolls?
 


Nightfall said:
Sorry but I disagree. If you have a weak con score (and this is true back in the days when people had like Neg -3) it doesn't help that much when you take damage.

Same is true when it's back to the old "save or die" spells, effects and other things. I just don't see that combat being 99%. 75% certainly, possibly as high as 85%. But in between there are save and die effects, effects that can permanent disable if not outright disperse a character from play. (Recalls the one time my friend tried to ignore a power check in a Ravenloft game, ended up a pawn of the Dark Powers and had to get a new character.)


So a significant number of D&D characters you've seen have died from natural causes and old age?

I've seen exactly one die of natural causes.
 

But, AaronL, the point is, if you allow die rolled characters, you wind up with characters with weaker stats and stronger stats. People will generally dump stats into this or that, depending on the class. That dump statting leads to PC death since it will likely, over the course of the campaign come up at one point or another. Using point buy allows players to mitigate that effect largely by having fairly even stats.
 

Hussar said:
But, AaronL, the point is, if you allow die rolled characters, you wind up with characters with weaker stats and stronger stats. People will generally dump stats into this or that, depending on the class. That dump statting leads to PC death since it will likely, over the course of the campaign come up at one point or another. Using point buy allows players to mitigate that effect largely by having fairly even stats.


Actually, was just curious if he had actually come across a lot of characters that have actually died of old age.

As for stats, whatever you like to use, it don't matter to me. I let my players pick their own stats to fit what they want.
 

A Bit of Everything...

Old age? Happens a lot... To older gamers... And their characters!

Multiclassing? Not a problem. We have a Gestalt Rog/Sor and a Gestalt Ftr/Wiz as well as single class Sor, single Clr, single Rgr, and no single class would change for the Gestalts. If Gestalt is NOT a problem, hard to see how multiclassing might be a problem.

Fixing multiclassing? Yes, that is somethign we need for relevance of our equivalencies. A Ftr 5 / Wiz 5 is not a level 10 character. It may cost him the XP, but it simply is not equal, nor equivalent. Worse yet, the reasons why Gestalt works out: you can only do one thing at a time, and multiclassing calls upon two or more abilities when you can only really concentrate on maximizing a single ability. Applying 4-5 points to Str will not yield the same as 2 pts to Str and 2 pts to Dex.

The quick solutions are always house rules. Our appreciation of house rules, official rules and anything else is always subjective. No possibility of making everyone happy. Be happy with your own game. Fix it as you wish!

I believe in Instantaneous Halfling Spontaneous Combustion!
I believe in catapults!
I believe in tracer ammo: catapulted halflings spontaneously combusting!
 

Aaron L said:
Actually, was just curious if he had actually come across a lot of characters that have actually died of old age.

As for stats, whatever you like to use, it don't matter to me. I let my players pick their own stats to fit what they want.
Question for you, Aaron L.

how much initial extra tweaking did using that character generation method require? If any...

It'd seem to me that option would be good so long as you have non-munchkin players, but did it cause any unforseen side effects?
 

airwalkrr said:
1. Multiclassing
AD&D was too strict. 3rd edition is too permissive. In AD&D you couldn't change professions unless you were human; that was a problem. In 3rd edition you can't help but change professions many times, including certain prestigious professions; this is also a problem.
Potential Solution: There needs to be a significant drawback to multiclassing while keeping it viable. Currently, the only drawback (XP penalty) is easily circumvented. Even when it isn't avoided, XP loss isn't fun.

You're looking at it in the eyes of a tweaking power gamer. WHen my players multiclass, it's for RP reasons and it's to be unique. No one in our games, in character or out of character, truly refer to themselves by their class/prestige class names. They make each individual unique. For example, one player of mine has a Paladin/Fighter/Cavalier but in-game he's known as a "Holy Cavalier of Helm". He also has a Samurai/Psychic Warrior/Elocator who's known as "Amutsugi of Clan Kaisetsu, a clan where it's warriors are gifted with abilities that they have molded into a unique martial arts style known as te Kaisetsu Style. Amutsugi's talents have been honed to specialize in martial maneuvers involving psychoportation."

If you look at it in that perspective, then multiclassing not only doesn't seem so bad but you'd hardly notice it. Unless someone were truly just trying to tweak and power game, in which case I can see the problem.

airwalkrr said:
2. Free Metamagic
Metamagic as an idea is great. But there is a reason the designers gave it an opportunity cost in the form of a higher level spell slot. Wizards were not meant to maximize fireballs at 5th level and clerics weren't meant to chain greater magic weapon at 7th level. The current trend of metamagic rods, sudden metamagic feats, and other "free" metamagic effects gives spellcasters too much power.
Potential Solution: I think this aspect just needs to be removed from the game. Metamagic is fine. "Free" metamagic is not.

Those magic items are not "free". They have a market price value and a character should not have items equal to the total he or she should have for that character level. If they go over it, then they're imbalanced for game play. It's in the DMG.

airwalkrr said:
3. Synergy
I'm not talking about synergy bonuses from skills. I am talking about unintended consequences of mixing and matching sourcebooks. For example, if a dread necromancer (Heroes of Horror) takes the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat (Libris Mortis), he gets unlimited healing. Taken separately, neither of these abilities is overpowered. Taken together, they have synergy that is far greater than the power of their individual components, likely an oversight because the books had different development teams.
Potential Solution: Allow each player access to one sourcebook ONLY outside of the three core rulebooks. This prevents most forms of synergy. Of course it reduces player options so it is not an ideal solution.

This I agree with, but then again, the DM should rule 0. It's that simple. If he makes it known that only core rules are allowed and he has to review non-core rules before admitting them into play, then so be it. If the problem springs up afterwards, again he should rule zero it. If the player doesn't understand, too bad.

airwalkrr said:
4. Two-Handed Weapons
Because of the double bonus from Power Attack, floaty shields, and more beneficial Strength modifier, two-handed weapon wielders have become the staple of melee combat. Forgive me, but this is trite. Two-weapon fighters and sword-and-board style have become comparatively worthless relics in the game.
Potential Solution: (and this is vague) The game needs to support multiple fighting styles by providing viable options for each that don't heavily overshadow the others. Player's Handbook 2 goes a long way towards rectifying this problem, but I don't know if it goes far enough.

I don't really see that many two-handed wielders. It's a good split between sword&shield, two-weapon, one-handed and two-handed fighting with my group. I have seen material that greatly benefit all of those.

airwalkrr said:
5. Balancing Per Encounter Instead of Per Day
This is a horrible idea because it propagates the notion that the world conforms itself to the power level of the player characters. Some encounters are meant to be tougher, and those encounters require greater resources. Others are meant to be more menial and require fewer resources. Properly gauging the difficulty of an encounter and balancing your resources is part of the strategy of D&D. Leave "per encounter" balancing in MMORPGs and keep D&D a strategic game, like it was meant to be. Or at least publish two versions.
Potential Solution: (another vague one) Characters should not be able to use their most powerful abilities without limit.

Well, no one has fun when the DM throws a great wyrm at them at level 2. In the end, you need to realize it's a game and as long as your players know that too, then it doesn't seem so unrealistic anymore. To make things more realistic, I agree with throwing in something too weak or too powerful now and then, but give them a fighting chance. Like allow them to lure the frost giant into a know fire trap or something if they're level 4 fighting it.

airwalkrr said:
6. Neverending Buffs
Yet another thing that removes an element of strategy from the game. Clerics are particularly fond of these. Spells like magic vestment, greater magic weapon, and heroes' feast are virtual must-haves for clerics because they last practically all day, especially with extend spell. "Forget situational spells. Just memorize the ones that keep you perpetually powered-up!" That's bland.
Potential Solution: Reduce durations of spells like this, or add costly material or XP costs to reduce their frequency of use.

I can agree with this, but it depends on the game's style. Not everyone likes the same style of gaming. Some like D&D to be more MMORPG like and others don't. I don't mind it either way.

airwalkrr said:
7. Combat Expertise and Power Attack
These kinds of feats make the game a bit too complicated because of the constant calculation required. A 10th-level fighter with Power Attack has 11 attack options representing the various penalties he can take. A 10th-level fighter with Power Attack AND Combat Expertise has 66 attack options! And he is expected to quickly decide which course of action is best?
Potential Solution: Simplify these kinds of feats with a flat penalty and flat bonus. The decision for the player then becomes merely to use it or not.

No, flat bonuses are horrible, trust me. They're like that in DDO: Stormreach and a lot of people hate it. My Barbarian hardly, if ever, uses Power Attack because of it.

And you were just recently talking about players need to do more strategizing, allowing Combat Expertise and Power Attack to be customizable IS strategy.

airwalkrr said:
8. Point Buy
As if we needed more excuses for players to focus on character creation as opposed to actually playing the game. The world isn't that fair. I don't know why we would expect our characters to be "equal" either (as if that ideal were even possible). Besides, it ruins the excitement of rolling up a really nice set of scores.
Potential Solution: Roll ability scores.

Depends on game style. Everyone has to make a character according to whatever method the DM uses.

airwalkrr said:
9. Rerolls
Various class abilities that allow rerolls greatly reduce the amount of chance in the game. You aren't likely to roll very many 1s during a game session, and if you have one or two reroll abilities (luck domain, luck blade, fatespinner, etc.) you don't need to worry about them. As long as your character is powerfully built, you will almost never need to worry about pesky automatic failures. Additionally, these abilities are greater still in the hands of NPCs, who only usually need them for one battle.
Potential Solution: Don't allow rerolls to change the result of automatic successes or failures.

Well, you're Luck Priest isn't really lucky if he can't manage to get himself out of a 1 on an attack, now is he? Doesn't really make sense.

airwalkrr said:
10. Magic Item Creation
It costs XP to make magic items. So my character unlearns things for succeeding at a task. How on earth does that make sense?
Potential Solution: Just drop the XP cost for magic item creation. It already costs your character a feat. Or make the creation of magic items difficult by requiring rare components that must be quested for.

Well, you don't unlearn anything, because you can't lose a level crafting magic items. I see and explain it as a representation of great energies that tax the mind, body and spirit of the individual crafting such potent items, whether minor or overwhelming in power. Someone else might explain it differently. Point is, XP cost is a great way to deter power gamers from crafting magic items to the point of uberness.
 

Bacris said:
Question for you, Aaron L.

how much initial extra tweaking did using that character generation method require? If any...

It'd seem to me that option would be good so long as you have non-munchkin players, but did it cause any unforseen side effects?


Well, first let me just add that I'm a horrible DM. And I like more 'heroically' proportioned characters.

If there were any side effects, I didn't notice them. Everyone I game with is responsible and mature and would never give themselves all 18's or anything ridiculous like that. They give the character stats that match what they want the character to be like.

It's all for fun and I don't see an reason to limit them in making characters.
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top