I have a problem with monks and halflings

[Mercurius]

Or you could just kill that halfling monk and take his stuff.

 

[Bullgrit]

Halfling Monk : Large Creature :: Human Monk : Huge Creature.

If you can accept the idea of a human monk besting a dragon, it's really not much of a stretch to say that a halfling monk can take on an ogre.

See, that's the problem. I can't "accept" the idea of a human monk besting a dragon. (This is a failure of imagination, not a philosophical or realism stand.) Is it ironic or maybe part of the problem that I have empty-hand martial arts training (in real life)?

I have a mental stumble when imagining and describing a human monk killing an ogre; that stumble is a complete face-down fall when the monk is a halfling. I've stopped even trying to give the killing blow from the halfling a descriptive narrative. I now just say, "It falls dead."

I mean, the halfling comes up to the ogre's knee. I can imagine the halfling hurting an ogre, even stunning it, but it's the killing the ogre that's . . . killing me. How do you describe the killing blow on an ogre from a halfling monk?

It's not the halfling's strength (which is figured into the game mechanics), but it's the reach. Unless that punch to the ogre's shin travels up through the leg, through the abdomen, and up to the chest, I can't get my head around a halfling monk stopping an ogre's heart.

I guess I do need to embrace the idea that monk damage is pseudo "magical" and not actual physical. I think I can get that better. Sitting here thinking about it, I think I should go that route in my mental descriptions for the halfling monk.

Bullgrit

 

[Slife]

Don't worry about it. Monks' flurry of misses pretty adequately simulates the difficulty of actually inflicting damage against a large opponent.

I mean, the halfling comes up to the ogre's knee. I can imagine the halfling hurting an ogre, even stunning it, but it's the killing the ogre that's . . . killing me. How do you describe the killing blow on an ogre from a halfling monk?

It's not the halfling's strength (which is figured into the game mechanics), but it's the reach. Unless that punch to the ogre's shin travels up through the leg, through the abdomen, and up to the chest, I can't get my head around a halfling monk stopping an ogre's heart.

The ogre swings his massive, beefy fist down. Quick as lightning, the halfling jumps onto it. As the ogre roars in pain, the monk runs along the fist, digging his heels into the ogre's flesh. Nimbly dodging the ogre's wild haymaker, he leaps upwards, putting the momentum of his whole body into a flying tackle. His shoulder impacts the ogre's solar plexus, and it bellows in agony, collapsing to the ground.


Come to think of it, a halfling's got a really good strength:mass ratio, right? Seems like they should be exceptional jumpers.

 

[the Jester]

I mean, the halfling comes up to the ogre's knee. I can imagine the halfling hurting an ogre, even stunning it, but it's the killing the ogre that's . . . killing me. How do you describe the killing blow on an ogre from a halfling monk?

"The halfling reaches up on tiptoes, grabs the ogre's manhood and RIPS IT RIGHT OFF!! Blood gushes everywhere, and it takes the ogre a moment to realize that it has just been kilt."

 

[Murad]

"The halfling reaches up on tiptoes, grabs the ogre's manhood and RIPS IT RIGHT OFF!! Blood gushes everywhere, and it takes the ogre a moment to realize that it has just been kilt."

Yes. He the ogre is big and arrogant, and is killed by small halfling. Ha.

 

[Oni]

Ki, that's totally the ticket.

*ancient forbidden technique: spleen poke*

Halflings...tiny hands of death.

 

[TwinBahamut]

I would make a detailed reply, but I think I may as well just link to something that sums up my feelings on the subject better than I could describe them myself.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UyDgMuVw5E"]A Martial Artist Destroys a 50 Foot Tall Robot[/ame]You only really need to watch the first half of the video...

 

[Dausuul]

I concluded a while ago that D&D monks are magic. That's all there is to it. When the monk's fist connects, it imparts a force to the target vastly out of proportion to the strength of the monk's arm. The monk hits vital spots because he can leap three times his own height.

It's pretty much the only way I can stomach it. I can tolerate fighters as low-grade superhumans a la Beowulf, but monks are beyond the pale. (Of course, come to think of it, Beowulf's first big victory was when he tore off a monster's arm with his bare hands...)

But then, I dislike monks on flavor grounds to begin with.

 

[Glyfair]

It's not the halfling's strength (which is figured into the game mechanics), but it's the reach. Unless that punch to the ogre's shin travels up through the leg, through the abdomen, and up to the chest, I can't get my head around a halfling monk stopping an ogre's heart.

Fights aren't static. The Ogre doesn't stand still, the halfling waits for an opportunity (or creates one) in order to attack it.

If you really want an example of what the monk was supposed to be, pick up the Destroyer series (Remo Williams, the Adventure Begins doesn't quite capture the awesomeness of Sinanju). Anecdotally, a player wanted to play someone like that and thus the monk was created (by Gary, IIRC).

 

[kibbitz]

See, that's the problem. I can't "accept" the idea of a human monk besting a dragon. (This is a failure of imagination, not a philosophical or realism stand.) Is it ironic or maybe part of the problem that I have empty-hand martial arts training (in real life)?

I have a mental stumble when imagining and describing a human monk killing an ogre; that stumble is a complete face-down fall when the monk is a halfling. I've stopped even trying to give the killing blow from the halfling a descriptive narrative. I now just say, "It falls dead."

I mean, the halfling comes up to the ogre's knee. I can imagine the halfling hurting an ogre, even stunning it, but it's the killing the ogre that's . . . killing me. How do you describe the killing blow on an ogre from a halfling monk?

It's not the halfling's strength (which is figured into the game mechanics), but it's the reach. Unless that punch to the ogre's shin travels up through the leg, through the abdomen, and up to the chest, I can't get my head around a halfling monk stopping an ogre's heart.

I guess I do need to embrace the idea that monk damage is pseudo "magical" and not actual physical. I think I can get that better. Sitting here thinking about it, I think I should go that route in my mental descriptions for the halfling monk.

Bullgrit

Well, I had empty-handed martial arts training before, and I have no problems with D&D monks killing dragons. I think it's more of your personal views... would I be correct that you don't see high level fighters as superhuman, but merely very well trained?

Anyway, I think you could just treat monks in D&D as having a specific type of physical magic. Mages bend reality with their invocations, Priests by channeling divine power, Psionicists use the untapped power of the mind, and Monks have learned to channel Ki to perform their own unique type of magic. Their abilities already reflect that, with them being able to treat their attacks as magical as they rise in level.

The issue of size and anatomy is an annoying one though, but there are usually options, especially for humanoids. The easiest is probably the heavy blow on the weakened enemy causes the enemy to pass out or even die from pain/shock. I suppose this helps further when you play with hit location systems and you have stuff KOed/killed from blows to areas that are usually not as vital.

Alternatively, take to the air! Spin kicks to the head, a leaping uppercut, or an aerial backfist to the back of the neck. However, if you want something more normal, treat the attack as a combination. Kick to the back of the knees or an attack on the groin lowers enemy for anything from a necksnap, strike to a nerve point behind the ear, etc.

That is more for humanoids and decent-sized creatures with a reasonable anatomy. Anything huge or unusual, well, you pretty much have to fall back to hit very hard, though there's always different ways to describe the attacks. This may be abhorrent to some, but you can take a look at some videos of fighting games like Street Fighter, Tekken and whatnot for ideas.