I have a problem with monks and halflings

[El Mahdi]

Power come from mass. Not from little man with muscles. If he not have mass, he not have power.

Monks are umarmed combat martial-artists. Martial arts are less about mass-equals-power, as they are the proper and efficient application of that power. And Yes, a martial-artist with more strength/mass could do more damage than a weak/low mass martial artist. However, in this case, more damage is inconsequential because martial arts are also about "where" to hit, usually in areas where focusing even a few pounds of force will do significant damage (meaning strength is irrelevant).

Even a child, with the right training, can apply enough force to specific locations to cause significant damage or even death (real world examples: it only takes about 2-4 pounds of force to collapse a windpipe, resulting in suffocation and death; it only takes about 1 pound of pressure to completely close off the Jugular vein in the neck - hold for 10 seconds and the target passes out - hold for another 10 seconds and the target can die; a strike on the center of the chest with as little as 10 pounds of force, at the right time, can interupt the hearts beating and cause heart failure - a martial artist trained in the observation of pulse and respiration rythms, could possibly time such a strike to accomplish this - but in real life, even kids are accidentally killed by being hit in the chest with a thrown baseball, baseballs thrown by other kids).

Also, throws and flips use the attackers energy against them, which would also mean that the strength/mass of the martial artist is again irelevent. The martial artist simply becomes a fulcrum for the lever/attacker. A "throw" isn't about actually throwing anyone, but redirecting an attackers energy so they effectively throw themself.

If one also believes in the existence of Ki, the focusing and release of Ki also makes strength completely irrelevent, since the damage is actually the result of, or magnified by, released Ki energy. Although in real-life Ki has never been scientifically observed, measured or proven - martial artists do seem to be able to do things that defy physics. They explain this as the focusing of Ki. Whether or not Ki exists in the real-world, in a game-world it is real and therefore can explain "little man" injuring and defeating "big man" or "monster", even without having enough mass for the percieved application of "power".

 

[El Mahdi]

Chimp not punch hard. It good for ripping man. But not hitting.

Do a news search on Google and you'll find that just yesterday a Chimpanzee had to be shot by police after attacking a person. The person who was attacked is still in the hospital, in critical condition, after hours and hours of surgery.

 

[El Mahdi]

The Straight Dope: Can a 90-lb. chimp clobber a full-grown man?

When you can pull things apart you don't have any need to punch. Give the chimpanzee a human shaped body for leverage and full martial arts training (as impossible as these things are) and it would punch through people.

I may have to use something like this the next time I DM a game. A sentient, martial arts trained chimpanzee. My PC's are gonna be Toast! *Evil Laughter*

 

[Murad]

Do a news search on Google and you'll find that just yesterday a Chimpanzee had to be shot by police after attacking a person. The person who was attacked is still in the hospital, in critical condition, after hours and hours of surgery.

I see story. Chimp strong. But not punch. It scrape. It bite. It not punch for the boxing. Chimp is good for wrestle.

 

[Murad]

Monks are umarmed combat martial-artists. Martial arts are less about mass-equals-power, as they are the proper and efficient application of that power. And Yes, a martial-artist with more strength/mass could do more damage than a weak/low mass martial artist. However, in this case, more damage is inconsequential because martial arts are also about "where" to hit, usually in areas where focusing even a few pounds of force will do significant damage (meaning strength is irrelevant).

Even a child, with the right training, can apply enough force to specific locations to cause significant damage or even death (real world examples: it only takes about 2-4 pounds of force to collapse a windpipe, resulting in suffocation and death; it only takes about 1 pound of pressure to completely close off the Jugular vein in the neck - hold for 10 seconds and the target passes out - hold for another 10 seconds and the target can die; a strike on the center of the chest with as little as 10 pounds of force, at the right time, can interupt the hearts beating and cause heart failure - a martial artist trained in the observation of pulse and respiration rythms, could possibly time such a strike to accomplish this - but in real life, even kids are accidentally killed by being hit in the chest with a thrown baseball, baseballs thrown by other kids).

Also, throws and flips use the attackers energy against them, which would also mean that the strength/mass of the martial artist is again irelevent. The martial artist simply becomes a fulcrum for the lever/attacker. A "throw" isn't about actually throwing anyone, but redirecting an attackers energy so they effectively throw themself.

If one also believes in the existence of Ki, the focusing and release of Ki also makes strength completely irrelevent, since the damage is actually the result of, or magnified by, released Ki energy. Although in real-life Ki has never been scientifically observed, measured or proven - martial artists do seem to be able to do things that defy physics. They explain this as the focusing of Ki. Whether or not Ki exists in the real-world, in a game-world it is real and therefore can explain "little man" injuring and defeating "big man" or "monster", even without having enough mass for the percieved application of "power".

I black belt. Child can do not damage like that. Is fantasy. Yes, can hit nice. But still need power. No magic touch to hurt. Only many, good hits with power can defeat. I fight much. No gear. I know this one. These magic attacks to chest, rare, and random. Cannot predict time. Death touch is no real. Trust me. If death touch exist, Arabs would use.

I no doubt little man can beat big man, but must use brain. He is not one for the power.

 

[pawsplay]

Halfling monks are far less of an issue than picturing monks smashing iron golems with their bare fists.

 

[Snapdragyn]

Power come from mass.

So, what, you're saying a bullet has no power? (I don't think you are, I simply think you've missed the implications of your statement.)

Power does not come from mass - power (speaking only to the melee applications) comes from the transfer of kinetic energy, mass moving at speed. High mass is one means of increasing this, but high speed is another - thus the tiny bullet piercing flesh, bone, & even walls or car doors.

The smaller size of a halfling's fist (even assuming a higher strength/mass ratio) doesn't actually increase the power, though, it merely shifts the transfer of energy from the 'blunt' toward the 'piercing' side of things - though not in a rules-relevant sense (barring house rules, of course).

 

[Cadfan]

But high speed comes from muscles, which have mass.

Whatever, apparently I've been training all those kids in karate the wrong way all these years. They come to me, and I teach them to follow directions, balance, and engage in physical activities with some modicum of coordination. They leave more confident than before, and better prepared to learn other physical activities in the future. Apparently I should be able to turn them into killing machines, but I just can't seem to do it. Try as I might, they're still tiny kids.

The OP should do one of two things.

1. Accept that its fantasy, that ki is functionally a magical force, and that the player is enjoying his character. Roll your eyes, and enjoy your game.

2. Do what the dragonborn thread said, ban his character, ban halflings, ban monks, and make everyone play the way that YOU like because your enjoyment is the most important since you're the DM and obviously you can't be expected to run a quality game if it has halfling monks in it.

Anyone who's read my posts in the other thread knows which one I favor.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Its a fantasy game. There are all kinds of things that require the reality check portion of the brain to take a little time off.

Going in the opposite direction, lets look at giants. They really shouldn't be walking around or existing at all. Even humans that grow abnormally tall have difficulties and average shorter lifespans due to the laws of the physical universe. A humanoid the size of a giant couldn't even really stand up much less be a fearsome fighter but we don't have trouble accepting them.

When it comes to a little guy hitting something that big, just imagine a full strength human warrior in armor attacking a huge dragon with a broadsword. Even though the human is armed with a piece of heavy sharp steel, in reality he wouldn't stand much of a chance of getting through the dragon's scale but we accept this just fine.

We can suspend disbelief because D&D characters have training and abilities that permit feats that can't be duplicated in our world. Even in a fantasy world most people can't do the stuff an adventurer can.

Lets take our human warrior vs the huge dragon as an example. The warrior is a militia man fighting to save his village. Since he is 0 or 1st level he has almost no chance of scoring a hit on the dragon. He swings bravely but fails to deal any damage. The dragon stomps him dead in one hit. The End.
In this example the human died and it makes perfect sense to us why. Its consistent with what one would expect to happen in that situation.

In Example 2 our human warrior is a 12th level human fighter in armor, armed with an identical looking sword. His great skill and toughness allow him to keep chopping at the dragon until it falls dead at his feet. How is this possible? He was a human of the same size and build as the militia man and similarly armed and armored, why did he stand a chance?

If you can accept the events of the example given then you can accept a kung-fu master hobbit punching an ogre in the nads and dropping him.

 

[Byronic]

You've recently watched Fist of the North Star, haven't you?

I haven't watched that movie in years (something I should correct). I was actually thinking of my uncles Chi Kung books.

On this subject I remember an issue of the Initiates where the Taskmaster defeated two people with super growth powers by hitting them both in a certain place making them fall down like bowling pins.

Hitting someone in the right place is often more important then simply hitting them hard.