I have an issue with swarms

[Tony Vargas]

Bites (swarm has more than half HP)[/B][/I]. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 0 ft., one creature in the swarm's space. Hit: (2d4) piercing damage.
Bites (swarm has half HP or less).[/B][/I] Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 0 ft., one creature in the swarm's space. Hit: (1d4) piercing damage.

It seems to me that a swarm should at least have something akin to pack tactics, i.e. advantage on their attacks (because of the sheer number, the odds must be ever in their favor?!) and I would even hazard that they should have multi-attack (at least while above 50% HP).

A single bat presumably wouldn't have a +4 to hit (possibly not even an effective attack), so the 'advantage' of sheer numbers is providing that +4. Likewise, doing more damage while there are more bats in the swarm is comparable to multi-attack. But, if you wanted to make two attacks for d4 each instead of one for 2d4 until half hps, why not?

 

[MechaTarrasque]

You could add that anyone in the swarm must make a wisdom saving throw or become frightened and have to use its action to use the dash action to try to escape the swarm (which, of course, leaves them open for an OA from the swarm). Denying a PC an offensive action, and adding some extra damage seems like a nice addition, but high wisdom nature types or anyone with the calm emotions spell can likely escape.

 

[robus]

I got that, but why? The max damage is the same, you've just increased the odds of at least one hit, but you have doubles the number of attack rolls. Is that increased average DPR worth the effort?

Well it's not much of an effort, more to get a more dramatic effect from encountering a swarm.

 

[robus]

A single bat presumably wouldn't have a +4 to hit (possibly not even an effective attack), so the 'advantage' of sheer numbers is providing that +4. Likewise, doing more damage while there are more bats in the swarm is comparable to multi-attack. But, if you wanted to make two attacks for d4 each instead of one for 2d4 until half hps, why not?

That's a good point. I should probably reduce the to hit bonus to counter that....

 

[Dausuul]

I would not ever want to give a creature perma-advantage on attacks. That's just making combat more complicated for no good reason. If you want it to hit more reliably, boost its attack bonus. Or just dispense with the attack roll entirely, and have it deal auto damage to creatures in its space.

 

[robus]

I would not ever want to give a creature perma-advantage on attacks. That's just making combat more complicated for no good reason. If you want it to hit more reliably, boost its attack bonus. Or just dispense with the attack roll entirely, and have it deal auto damage to creatures in its space.

I don't see how it makes combat more complicated? Really just trying to produce something that's akin to pack tactics (where the swarm is an "auto-pack" )

 

[Dausuul]

I don't see how it makes combat more complicated? Really just trying to produce something that's akin to pack tactics (where the swarm is an "auto-pack" )

Remembering to roll two dice, and keeping track of which die is paired with which (since you were also considering multiattack). It's a small complication, but these things can add up, and why bother when you can just bump the attack bonus and accomplish the same thing?

 

[77IM]

Give the bats advantage on their attack, and if both dice hit, they deal double damage!

...oh wait, that is exactly the same as just giving them multi-attack...

I also think swarms should have multi-attack with 2 attacks but only when above half hit points. I think the ability would read better that way; it would increase the swarm's chance of doing SOME damage (which seems appropriate); and it would allow the swarm to attack two different characters, which is sometimes more fun.

 

[robus]

Give the bats advantage on their attack, and if both dice hit, they deal double damage!

...oh wait, that is exactly the same as just giving them multi-attack...

I also think swarms should have multi-attack with 2 attacks but only when above half hit points. I think the ability would read better that way; it would increase the swarm's chance of doing SOME damage (which seems appropriate); and it would allow the swarm to attack two different characters, which is sometimes more fun.

That's precisely my feeling. Swarms should feel dynamic.

 

[Umbran]

Yep, definitely for things like zombie swarms that's good. I guess the big thing for me is the lack of advantage on attacks. Why should a pack get it and not a swarm?

Oh, that's easy. A pack is organized in its actions. A pack of wolves is purposefully acting to take advantage of how many of them there are. They are thinking about their actions, and actively cooperating.

Swarms of bees, bats, and zombies don't use tactics at all - they don't have sufficient brains for it, nor modes of communication detailed enough to support it. They are just a group of individuals moving together, but not *working* together.