I have an issue with swarms

[robus]

I understand it as the damage from all the many bites, scratches, stings, etc. Agreed that using plural bites would make this clearer.

They do describe the attack as "Bites" so it's really my issue rather than theirs

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Splitting the attack in 2 is cool - it lets you have the swarm sweep through the party attacking a couple PCs as it moves. That's a nice touch.


I'd skip the advantage, though. I just don't like making it an always on thing. Pack tactics can be mitigated by the players if they want to bother, which to me seems just a smidge more interesting (tactical even) . . . I'm talking myself into giving the swarm a sort of pack tactics, though, like if two or more swarms join up, them they get advantage.

Usually I don't use a single swarm. I use at least two or better 4 of them in many cases. That way you have:
- more than 1 attack
- vulnerability to area damage since you can hit more of them.
- A little bit more flexibility in positioning.

 

[Len]

I have no idea how low level parties survived encounters with swarms in 3.5.

Torches and lanterns.

 

[robus]

Swarm Trait: Can attack once for each creature in its area.

Well there already is a swarm trait (which is why I came up with the "overwhelming" trait - though that's not been super popular). I like the idea of that, but the swarm of bats is described as "Medium" which doesn't make a ton of sense to me either. It should be large and then a bunched up party could be really harried

 

[Satyrn]

Well there already is a swarm trait (which is why I came up with the "overwhelming" trait - though that's not been super popular). I like the idea of that, but the swarm of bats is described as "Medium" which doesn't make a ton of sense to me either. It should be large and then a bunched up party could be really harried

There's nothing stopping you from making the swarm bigger.

But I'd think it's easier to just use multiple Medium swarms. Think of it as a tool for building whatever size you want - and as multiple Medium swarms, [MENTION=7706]SkidAce[/MENTION]'s suggestion is effectively implemented.

Look at it as a tool not the final product.

 

[Sacrosanct]

DM: You've exposed yourself to a swarm of insects
Player: Big deal! swarms are underpowered!
DM: The insects are old school rot grubs...

Watch the faces go from arrogant annoyance to terror in a split second

 

[epithet]

Ideas I've been working on for swarms include having AoE wipe out the swarm entirely on a failed save, taking it to half on a success. I also think perhaps a swarm of vermin shouldn't attack, but if a creature begins its turn in the area of a swarm or enters that area on its turn, it makes a dex save (DC of 8 + the swarm's attack bonus) or takes the swarm's attack damage, half damage on a success.

 

[cmad1977]

In Hoard of the Dragon Queen, there's a combat with two rat swarms for level 1 adventurers. I know many groups have found that challenging.

I almost killed a PC or two with a swarm of Quippers(piranha).

I’m not sure Swarms themselves are the issue. If I wanted them to be scarier to higher level PCs I’d ramp them up. They’re not just rats... they’re Infected Ratlings!

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6801558]robus[/MENTION] You know how 5e treats green slime as a hazard and not a monster? I think that's the model that swarms fit best into.

Usually when I've had PCs encounter a swarm their goal is not "kill the swarm", rather it's "accomplish ______, while dealing with the swarm." In other words, the swarm plays the role of an obstacle. And the most satisfying ways of handling obstacles are those that encourage player creativity.

Statting up a swarm as a monster encourages players to switch into "how do I kill it" mode. Which is –usually– artificial in the narrative. In other words, it switches the player out of the more organic "how do I deal with it" thinking.

I've run swarms as obstacles impromptu, but I've never written up anything formal yet... My hunch would be to blend the green slime writeup with a few of the swarm traits and a dash of the trap countermeasures from XGtE.