I hid last round and now I want to attack...

[Sir Brennen]

Never mind.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Helpful nothing, theres nothing in books or SRD that ever says a foe you are hiding from loses its Dex bonus to AC. Gamemaster's generosity aside, you have to catch them Blinded, flat footed, flanked [melee only], severly hindered [balancing, climbing...etc] or while you are invisible.

I couldn't find anything definitive either. At least, nothing that said Hidden=Invisible, or anything so straightforward. I treat a Hidden PC's foe as blinded with regards to that PC (until he notices the PC, such as after an attack) and therefore:

Blinded: The character cannot see. He takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a –4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.

But my treatment isn't concretely spelled out anywhere either.

 

[Tsuul]

I was hopeing that the knowledge wasn't the product of some communal "common sense". Or at least, that there was verification of it in writting somewhere.

Thank you all for your time.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Yes, it seems that this is one of those things there is no rule for.

Essentially, attacking requires you to stop hiding, unless you are sniping.

The best rule I can think of that sort of verifies this is that when you are invisible attacking makes the invisibility go away, but the first attack denies the target its dex, none of the secondary attacks do.

I would rule that given that, the same thing could be applied to hiding. You get one attack off "while hiding" and deny the enemy their dex, and after that, they can see you, so the rest don't deny dex.

 

[irdeggman]

Time and Skill Checks
Using a skill might take a round, take no time, or take several rounds or even longer. Most skill uses are standard actions, move actions, or full-round actions. Types of actions define how long activities take to perform within the framework of a combat round (6 seconds) and how movement is treated with respect to the activity. Some skill checks are instant and represent reactions to an event, or are included as part of an action.

These skill checks are not actions. Other skill checks represent part of movement.


Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

Alright how about this:

Hiding is a made as part of a move action It requires some movement (more complex than a 5 ft step) in order to perform.

Attacking while hidden is a surprise action hence a surprise round. There is no such thing as a surprise action per se. The limit to the number of attacks a character can make in a surprise round has already been covered (either a standard action or a move action but not a full round action). Since multiple attacks requires a full round action it can’t normally be done in a surprise round.

Continuing to hide is still a move action (or part of a movement hence not leaving a full round action to perform the full attack).

Check: Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

Now it does allow or seem to anyways that a character can hide while attacking (at a –20 to his check).

But regardless the only benefit gained from hiding appears to be the surprise round factor. In order to gain a benefit in combat the character needs to faint (i.e., use Bluff) and that only works on his next attack, and since it is an action to bluff the character can only make 1 attack. There are however some feats that will allow buff as a free action, but we aren’t talking about that – at least not yet. I haven’t seen anything that indicates a hiding character denies his opponent his dex bonus, which is what is needed in this case to perform the sneak attack.

SURPRISE
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised.

Determining Awareness
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.
Determining awareness may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks.

The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

 

[mikebr99]

The hide skill, can either be combined with movement, or it is a move action all by itself... as it is with sniping or a melee attack from a hidden position.

Now... in order to deliver a melee attack from a hidden position, you have to be already hidden, from last round, and still have (usually) total cover or concealment from your target.

If you meet both conditions... you can roll your hide (move equiv.) check at -20 (to remain hidden), and attack once.

Mike

 

[Krelios]

The "only the first attack denies an opponent their dex" thing is just a house rule that a lot of people think makes sense. Personally, I don't know how you can say that's common sense and reconcile that with someone hitting you in the surprise round can still catching you flat-footed a full round later if they have a higher initiative than you. IMC, since it's not explicitly denied, it's not denied, and a rogue that can catch an opponent unawares gets that for his or her full attack.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Yes, but I believe what we are talking about is a situation where, say, a PC hides behind a desk or something, an enemy enters the room, then the other PCs jump out and attack the enemy.

The battle continues on for a round or two, then the enemy gets within arms reach of the desk, and the hiding PC then attacks with all his attacks.

As I said before, best to treat it like invisibility, the first attack is resolved as if invisible, all attacks after that are not.

If, in the situation of the battle not having started yet, then yes, it creates a surprise round where the PC can only attack once, and the enemy will be flat footed.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

The "only the first attack denies an opponent their dex" thing is just a house rule that a lot of people think makes sense. Personally, I don't know how you can say that's common sense and reconcile that with someone hitting you in the surprise round can still catching you flat-footed a full round later if they have a higher initiative than you. IMC, since it's not explicitly denied, it's not denied, and a rogue that can catch an opponent unawares gets that for his or her full attack.

Technically, there is no rule that says hiding denies dex at all.

However, the basic idea behind it is that once you attack you aren't hiding anymore. So, after the first attack, the enemy has had time to realize "hey, I've just been hurt" and bring their weapons around to deflect your blows/twist their body so you can't stab them in the spleen anymore/knows you are there so can try to dodge.

That's the way it works in the case of invisibility, once you can be seen, they aren't flatfooted anymore. I don't see why once you weren't hiding why they would be flatfooted either.

Edit: also, the concept that if it isn't denied, it is allowed is just silly. It doesn't deny a lot of things that just aren't allowed.

 

[irdeggman]

Technically, there is no rule that says hiding denies dex at all.

That is correct as far as I can tell.

However, the basic idea behind it is that once you attack you aren't hiding anymore. So, after the first attack, the enemy has had time to realize "hey, I've just been hurt" and bring their weapons around to deflect your blows/twist their body so you can't stab them in the spleen anymore/knows you are there so can try to dodge.

That's the way it works in the case of invisibility, once you can be seen, they aren't flatfooted anymore. I don't see why once you weren't hiding why they would be flatfooted either.

I think part of the problem is that when hiding a character is not invisible. It appears that you want to treat them that way. It is not the case. They are two separate thigns per the rules.