I hope I'm wrong about this

[whatisitgoodfor]

According to some of the clarifications of the MM monster advancement system, whenever you increase a creatures HD by 50%, you increase its CR by 1.

Whenever you add a class level to said critter, you also increase its CR by 1.

So, if I'm understanding this, a Baalor(13 HD normally) with 19HD is the same CR as a Baalor Fighter1.

Please, please, please tell me I'm wrong and not completely insane.

 

[kreynolds]

I'm not sure about the 50% hit die increase but you are right about class levels. When just increasing hit die (i.e. not adding class levels) I use the CR formula from Dragon Magazine to calculate CR's, not to mention quite a bit of playtesting.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Sadly, you are correct about advancing HD and CR.

 

[mzsylver]

According to some of the clarifications of the MM monster advancement system, whenever you increase a creatures HD by 50%, you increase its CR by 1.

Whenever you add a class level to said critter, you also increase its CR by 1.

So, if I'm understanding this, a Baalor(13 HD normally) with 19HD is the same CR as a Baalor Fighter1.

Please, please, please tell me I'm wrong and not completely insane.

once again proving that DMs should go by what the creature really is and not the horribly broken CR system!

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Careful, I was recently called "hostile" and "bitter" for pointing out the the CR system is flawed to say the least.

 

[whatisitgoodfor]

Well, lets just look at it this way:

When we all get tired of 3e and make 4e, we'll just make sure that each and every monster race is basically balanced against the classes. Basically having all of the monsters with an RCC (to borrow something from Palladium (A system I hate by the way)).

Sure it will make the MM even more cumbersome, but it will avoid embarrasing fubars like this.

 

[kreynolds]

I gotta go with mzsylver on this one. That's why I playtest every monster I advance.

And just for the record, I don't care who thinks I'm hostile. I'm not frickin' hostile! Well...ok...maybe I am...Nahhh

 

[CRGreathouse]

Re: Re: I hope I'm wrong about this

once again proving that DMs should go by what the creature really is and not the horribly broken CR system!

Careful, I was recently called "hostile" and "bitter" for pointing out the the CR system is flawed to say the least.

I'll take these. I think the CR system is a great part of 3E. I don't like it when people complain about it, becuase I think it is a good system. Here's why I think people complain:

They try to use it for more than it is. The CR system is just a quick way to rank monsters; it's not the final judge of the power level of a given monster. Even if they were all perfectly accurate (which they're not), they still wouldn't be enough to let the DM ignore his/her own judgement.

Why? Becuase the challenge of a given monster varies by the party's composition. A group heavy on rogues will fare poorly against oozes and constructs, while a group heavy on clerics will shine against undead. A group without a dedicated wizard often has trouble against hordes of weaker creatures, etc.

The CR system is reasonably well-balanced for the standard party (fighter/cleric/rogue/wizard) and provides a good baseline estimate of a monster's power. If the DM ignores the party composition (and wealth, and feat choice...), his party may not face the appropriate challenge. Without the CR system, there's even less of a net to fall back on - judging a creature's challenge by its HD is even harder.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Sorry, but the CR system does not come close to working as a means of establishing an exp and level advancement system.

Sure it may give a rough scaling of monster power, but even that fails often. But if it were simply a power scale, no big deal. It is supposed to be a means of determining xp. It is a complete failure on that task.

The topic of this thread is one of the myriad examples where the system fails all on its own, regardless of party composition.

3E is still a great system because, thankfully, the CR/EL system is COMPLETELY disposable. So I don't feel that I am at all bitter or hostile. But I am not going to pretend that this great game does not have a big wart.

 

[CRGreathouse]

The topic of this thread is one of the myriad examples where the system fails all on its own, regardless of party composition.

This portion of the system is wrong, "broken", and a mistake. I agree there.

Here's my question: short of using the ever-so-popular method of "DM determines XP arbitrarily," what system do you suggest for assigning XP?