D&D 5E I just don't buy the reasoning behind "damage on a miss".

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
That doesn't mean that *everything* need be treated the same way. We're already treating slashing, piercing, and bludgeoning attacks the same way. Does it really make sense to lump explosions in there?

Well, what "needs" to happen depends upon your agenda.

For simulation, you go with whatever accurately simulates in a useful, tractable way. And, I note that unity of mechanic is useful.

Having different mechanics with different fiddly-bits to make things interesting sounds a lot like a gamist agenda item, not simulation.
 
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Wicht

Hero
There are plenty of spells where the effects are entirely non-random, many of which are a much closer match to what might be obtained by a Called Shot than ones which reduce a random number of hit points.

Really? Such as?

Some buff spells, I grant you, but what others?
 


Dausuul

Legend
Well if that fate is being my 3rd favorite RPG, than absolutely! The rest of you already have Pathfinder, last time I checked, which is still in active production. Why do you need two crunchy task declaration (a term I prefer over process-sim now) systems built on D&D tropes?
Wicht said "4E players who got tired of the system," not "Pathfinder players." As someone who falls into that category, I'm not interested in Pathfinder; Pathfinder perpetuates all the issues with 3E that led me to adopt 4E in the first place.

For better or for worse, 5E has moved away from most of the "dissociated" mechanics of 4E. I presume this was done in order to attract the many players who are turned off by such mechanics; some of whom adopted 4E despite their dislike, others of whom did not. So why would it retain this one dissociated mechanic, which doesn't even serve an important purpose?
 

Wicht

Hero
Fog Cloud, Web, Create Pit, Glitterdust, Ghoul Touch, at a quick glance of Wizard 2nd level spells from d20pfsrd.com.

Well Fog Cloud is not necessarily a combat spell, but the the effects affect PC and NPC alike. But non-random tis true.

Web allows a saving throw. Randomness.

Create Pit allows a saving throw. Randomness

Glitterdust allows a saving throw, and if you mistarget you are out of luck. Targeting requires successful Perception or guess work. Randomness.

Ghoul touch requires a touch attack and allows a saving throw. Randomness

So 1 out of 5 I grant you and it affects everyone equally, friend and foe alike with its non-randomness.
 

LostSoul

Adventurer
For better or for worse, 5E has moved away from most of the "dissociated" mechanics of 4E. I presume this was done in order to attract the many players who are turned off by such mechanics; some of whom adopted 4E despite their dislike, others of whom did not. So why would it retain this one dissociated mechanic, which doesn't even serve an important purpose?

This mechanic isn't dissociated: you make an attack, you always deal damage at least some damage. It's clearly tied to the game world (as much as any melee attack is).
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
This mechanic isn't dissociated: you make an attack, you always deal damage at least some damage.

Sure its dissasociated- even action heroes sometimes fail to "do damage", but not so with this mechanic.
 

Wicht

Hero
This mechanic isn't dissociated: you make an attack, you always deal damage at least some damage. It's clearly tied to the game world (as much as any melee attack is).

I think there was already something of an acknowledgment that it was. When a mechanic tells you that rolling a 5 in one round represents a miss where you are forcing a character into exerting himself, but the 4 on the next roll against the same opponent represents a lethal strike, the narration is dissassociated from the actual mechanics. There is no relationship between the narration and what you roll.
 

TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
Well Fog Cloud is not necessarily a combat spell, but the the effects affect PC and NPC alike. But non-random tis true.

Web allows a saving throw. Randomness.

Create Pit allows a saving throw. Randomness

Glitterdust allows a saving throw, and if you mistarget you are out of luck. Targeting requires successful Perception or guess work. Randomness.

Ghoul touch requires a touch attack and allows a saving throw. Randomness

So 1 out of 5 I grant you and it affects everyone equally, friend and foe alike with its non-randomness.
Oh, I thought the criteria was like a "Called Shot", in that there's a single roll to determine a large effect. I probably misread the conversation, then.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
If they're gamists, they should hate both, as gamism relies on a strong differentiation between success and failure and the involvement of skill and luck in determining those outcomes. "Player fiat" goes against the notion of creating this kind of experience.

We agree their reaction should be the same to both, though you argue it would be objection to both. Fair enough, it doesn't help explain why the reactions are different.

From a simulation perspective, these are two different things. There's no reason a six-second flurry of weapon strikes and an instantaneous explosion of some combustible flask would be simulated in the same way.

I didn't say "simulated the same way" though, as they are not obviously. I said they both lack such believability that the reaction of a simulationist should be pretty similar, IE this is really poor at simulating the thing it's supposed to simulate so I don't like it.
 

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