I know its saturday but I hope someone is out there.

[DM_Matt]

Yes they can strike but to only cause subdual ie KO. they can kill undead and contructs, which I would include plants elementals.

his attack would cause 1d10, + 3 for str, +2d6 +1 Holy vs evil plus touch of golden ice.

So he can pack a wallup

Thorncrest

Well, that means 1d10+3 vs nonevil, so he is utterly useless in those situations, and 16 damage a hit verses evil stuff is not that great at that level anyway. Hmmm, wait a minute...is that holy damage able to be dealt as non-subdual? If not, he is useless against evil stuff too because he cant even attack them. Touch of Golden Ice IS nice, but that just happens to be a self-contained feat thats ridiculously overpowered at low levels and totally useless at high ones.

Still, his offensive powers are irrelevant so long as they are not so awesome that his opponents must flee, so long as his AC is high enough. Once they realize they cant hit him (and any long-term enemy or employee thereof will know this about him), they will try to kill everyone else and pretend he isnt there.

 

[BSF]

Vow of Non-Violence prevents you from attacking Humanoids and, I think, monstrous humanoids (giants?). I belive you could still go full fledged against undead and probably demons, devils,etc. So it is possible to provide opponents that it is OK for them to fight.

Certainly there are mechanical balancers to Vow of Poverty. But they really aren't that extreme. Much depends exactly on the style of game that is being run. But a VOP character has reduced issues dealing with situations where other PCs lose access to their toys. That doesn't change the fact that Exalted feats tend to be a bit overpowered.

That being said, I like a lot of the flavor of the book. But I find that few players really want to move toward Exalted RP. They want the cool feats/abilties without the baggage. Let's face it, D&D is still about being the hero, killing the bad guys, taking their stuff and moving on to the next challenge. There is nothing wrong with that! It can be fun. But to bring a PC into the group that has something like Vow of Nonviolence is a huge shift for the group. You are moving into a realm ot interparty disagreement. - "They are evil and we should kill them before they hurt others." "No we haven't seen them do anything and they can be taught to be better. We should teach them by our example and then the world will be a better place." - Or any number of variations.

 

[Elric]

Wait a second. Sancify Ki Strike doesn't stack with Holy Ki Strike. Touch of Golden Ice is a DC 14 Fort save- iirc, it does Str damage and any fighter type (who would be harmed by having lower Str) that doesn't go down in one hit of subdual damage is going to make that save 90+% of the time.

Plus, 16 Str and he has Holy Ki Strike? That means that he has 16 Str and at least 15 Cha.

So he started out with 16 Str, 16 Dex, 16 Wis, 15 Cha. If he has lower other scores, say 14 Con and 10 Int, then this is still one really high ability score character. You shouldn't be surprised when a Vow of Poverty Monk (one of the most stat-reliant characters possible) is good when almost all of his ability scores start at 16.

Edit- Holy Ki Strike doesn't do subdual damage. How is a Vow of Peace Monk using it?

 

[Shadeus]

Actually, I think you have it a bit confused:

AC: 10 +5 (Dex) + 5 (Wis) + 9 (exalted) +3 (NA) + 3 (deflection) + 2 (monk dodge)
AC 37

The synergy with VoP and Vow of Peace means your bonuses for VoP increase by 2. So it should be +7 exalted, +1 NA, +1 deflection.

You also have your damage wrong. As a 10th-level monk, you would get a +7 (BAB) + 3 (str) + 2 (exalted strike) = +12/+12/+7 to your attack rolls. Your damage would be 1d10 + 3 (str) + 2 (exalted strike). There's a feat, holy subdual, that can change the holy dmg to subdual dmg. The monk has to waste a feat on Subduing Strike to do it though.

So it's still very good for a 10th-level character.

Thorncrest is right. Oozes, plants, and elementals are immune to criticals, but NOT immune to nonleathal damage like undead and constructs are.

 

[DM_Matt]

Actually, I think you have it a bit confused:

AC: 10 +5 (Dex) + 5 (Wis) + 9 (exalted) +3 (NA) + 3 (deflection) + 2 (monk dodge)
AC 37

The synergy with VoP and Vow of Peace means your bonuses for VoP increase by 2. So it should be +7 exalted, +1 NA, +1 deflection.

You also have your damage wrong. As a 10th-level monk, you would get a +7 (BAB) + 3 (str) + 2 (exalted strike) = +12/+12/+7 to your attack rolls. Your damage would be 1d10 + 3 (str) + 2 (exalted strike). There's a feat, holy subdual, that can change the holy dmg to subdual dmg. The monk has to waste a feat on Subduing Strike to do it though.

So it's still very good for a 10th-level character.

Thorncrest is right. Oozes, plants, and elementals are immune to criticals, but NOT immune to nonleathal damage like undead and constructs are.

Ok, so in essense it takes two feats to overcome the incompatability of holy damage and Vow of Peace. Now, for the sake of argument, lets see what I can do with a decent tank build against this guy. This guy uses the same stats, and similar lewvels of twink.

Hulking Evil Thug, Half-Ogre (ECL2) Fighter 8
Str 28 (+2levels+6race+4enh) Dex 14 (-2race) Con 20 Int 13 Wis (Low/Irrel) Cha (Low/Irrel)
Full BAB: +21/16 (8+3(enh)+9str+1WF+1GWF-1size)
Charge Attack: +23
DMG: 3d6+18 (+13str+3enh+2spec)
AC: 10+2 dex+2enh+8armor+4nat+1dodge = 27
Feats: WF(Greatsword), WSpec(Greatsword), Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Hold the Line, Expertise, Improved Trip, Large and In Charge
HP: 8d10+40 (~100)
Wealth Quota: 49
Items: Greatsword +3 (18), Belt of Str +4 (16), Mitheril Full Plate +2 (15)

This guy hits you on a 16 and you hit him on a 16. He has significantly more HP (in all likelihood), does a lot more damage (21-36 vs 8-27 / Av. 28 vs 18). He also gets way more atacks in a duel, since he never needs to allow a Flurry/Full Attack (he can attack and move after) and benefits from reach AOOs, Hold the Line, and Large and In Charge. He will win against grapples, just about always. He will win trip attempts pretty easily when he DOES want to stick around, which sets up him hitting on a 12 vs the monk hitting him on a 20, unless the monk stands up, taking an AOO but getting only one attack.

What does this prove? Well, not that your guy sucks, but simply that he isnt amazing for high-powered fighters. As long as ou arentth eonly one optimizing, you guy is good, but just not that uber.

 

[FireLance]

First of all, the character has 18 (later 20) Dex and 18 Wis (personally, I would add the ability increase to Wis, but that's another issue). That's already much more powerful than a baseline 25-point buy character. If he also has 16 Str, 13 Con (for Touch of Golden Ice), Cha 15 (for Holy Ki Strike) and a normal 10 Int, he's a 57-point character. However, that aside:

1. Monk AC bonus: +6 (+2 base, +4 for Wis)
2. Dex bonus: +5
3. Vow of Poverty grants a +2 ability score enhancement. Say it increases Dexterity, for a new Dex bonus of +6.
4. Vow of Poverty gives +7 exalted bonus, +1 natural armor and +1 deflection bonus.
5. Vow of Peace increases the bonuses to +9 exalted bonus, +3 natural armor bonus, and +3 deflection bonus.

Final AC: 37 [10 (base) + 2 (monk) + 4 (Wis) + 6 (Dex) +9 (exalted) +3 (natural) +3 (deflection)]

A character with more "normal" base scores (say, 14 Wis and 14 Dex) would have a final AC of 33.

A 10th-level fighter with Str 18 (base 14, +2 level increase, +2 enhancement), with a +2 weapon, and Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus in that weapon would have a melee attack bonus of +18 (BAB +10, +4 Str, +2 enhancement and +2 feats) and would hit the "normal" VOP&P monk on a 15 or higher.

Given that the VOP&P monk is tricked out to be the character whose devotion to the principles of nonviolence and ascetism is so strong that it makes combat around him difficult, and enables him to function as well as a character with equipment, it is probably quite reasonable.

Actually comparing the two vows, I would say that the Vow of Peace is more problematic. Mechanically, it adds another +6 to the character's AC and causes weapons to shatter. Without the Vow of Peace, the "normal" monk's AC drops to 27, and the sample fighter would hit him on a 9 or better with no worry about weapon breakage. As you have noted, the Vow of Peace makes most combat challenges impractical, either because the opponent cannot realistically hit the character, or the character will not want to attack the opponent. If you allow the Vow of Peace, you should consider cutting down on combat encounters and emphasize role-playing, problem-solving and other non-combat challenges.

 

[Elric]

FireLance has it right about Vow of Peace. When you consider how difficult it is for, say, your allies (and enemies) to fight with the character around, choosing the feat for +6 AC is really missing the point. When the rest of your party can't ever kill anyone, you have moved beyond +6 AC being important.

OH MY BLESSED HOLY GOD OF PEACE, MY AC IS SO HIGH, I AM RIDICULOUSLY UBER, I HAVE ALL 18s, MY DM CAN'T HANDLE MY OVERPOWERING GOODNESS.

Seriously.

Also, DR 10/evil means you have DR 10, except against evil aligned weapons. DR 10/good would mean you would have to pull out a Holy Sword to hurt a Saint.

By the way, DM_Matt is being nice by not making his guy a Frenzied Berserker or anything. If you really want the inverse of "Peace Man", well, try a Leap Attacking (Complete Adventurer feat) Frenzied Berserker on for size.

 

[DM_Matt]

FireLance has it right about Vow of Peace. When you consider how difficult it is for, say, your allies (and enemies) to fight with the character around, choosing the feat for +6 AC is really missing the point. When the rest of your party can't ever kill anyone, you have moved beyond +6 AC being important.

OH MY BLESSED HOLY GOD OF PEACE, MY AC IS SO HIGH, I AM RIDICULOUSLY UBER, I HAVE ALL 18s, MY DM CAN'T HANDLE MY OVERPOWERING GOODNESS.

Seriously.

Also, DR 10/evil means you have DR 10, except against evil aligned weapons. DR 10/good would mean you would have to pull out a Holy Sword to hurt a Saint.

By the way, DM_Matt is being nice by not making his guy a Frenzied Berserker or anything. If you really want the inverse of "Peace Man", well, try a Leap Attacking (Complete Adventurer feat) Frenzied Berserker on for size.

Ya, I intentionally handicapped myself by denying myself class tricks. I didn't want to compare him to the MOST optimized build, just AN optimized build. The half-ogre is strong enough as it is.

This thread is becoming a kung fu movie.
"Ha-ha! No one can defeat my Passive PoP&P Style!"
"Oh yeah, your Munch-Fu is weak! I could defeat you with one hand tied behind my back with my aggressive HOGRE style."
"You call that aggressive! Try as hard as you can! Do not insult me with your patronizing attitude! Fear my Ultra-Super-Power-Attack Style!"

 

[Shadeus]

No argument from me; I was just pointing out math errors. The monk character is very good when compared to the iconics, for example. But when you trick out an equally as nasty fighter for him to face, then it's a fair fight.