"I know the spell to solve the problem!"

[Elf Witch]

Other example:

Locked door:
1. Rogue rolls to remove trap, pick locks, and stealth through door: One missed roll and the whole effort was wasted (ok, he has multiple tries or could take 20 for the lock picking)

Getting past guards:
1. Rogue: Rolls Disguise, Bluff, Diplomacy, and Stealth. None of it detects as magic or can be seen through with true seeing. His skill versus theirs. If he looses he looses. Each roll has a flat 5% for a 1. Failure is much more likely if he has the skill not maxed out.

The thing is that the rogue has to spent his skill points at a skill every level to keep up with the DC.
And how often do you have to open a door silently in dungeon environment?
Why should the wizard cast invisibility?
Either the whole group has to go in undetected, so he casts invisibility sphere (and the cleric silence) to also cover the fighter and the cleric, or he doesn't. Let the rogue do solo stealth jobs, as he has no ability to take the group with him.And one failed check and he remembers all the monsters he passed and that are now between him and escape.

Getting past guards: Sleep spell if low level. Scry and teleport if high level. Takes the group with him.

Solo infiltration is nearly never demanded in an adventure, because most games are group efforts. Leaving the group behind means a bunch of players doing nothing.

Yep sleep is great if everyone fails their will save but if they don't then you have issues it only takes one guard to raise the alarm. And once the spell is cast how many spells does the wizard have left? And remember it is easy to wake a person up from a sleep spell. The rogue on the other hand can use the skills all day and night long and oh yeah he does not need 8 hours sleep to be able to do them the next day.

He also gets more skill points then any other core class so the fact that he has to spend skill points really is not a good argument.

As someone who loves playing magic users I would give up utility spells like knock, charm person, and the others people complain about to have the same amount of skill points a rogue gets.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Getting past guards: Sleep spell if low level.

...if not facing Elves or any other race that might be unaffected by such a spell.

 

[korjik]

...if not facing Elves or any other race that might be unaffected by such a spell.

Or anyone smart enough to plan for wizards casting sleep spells....

 

[Walking Dad]

...if not facing Elves or any other race that might be unaffected by such a spell.

Elves are not typical low level guard monsters. You could have at least said 'undead'.

And saying that rogues have many skill points is irritating. In 3.x, they need two skills to move stealthily, two skills to spot hidden guards and then search to look for traps etc.
And search and spot are derived from not high class priority abilities.

 

[Elf Witch]

Elves are not typical low level guard monsters. You could have at least said 'undead'.

And saying that rogues have many skill points is irritating. In 3.x, they need two skills to move stealthily, two skills to spot hidden guards and then search to look for traps etc.
And search and spot are derived from not high class priority abilities.

Actually it depends on the game in elven lands the guards would be elves and elven guards don't really have any more attributes that make them better guards then say a human one except the ability to see in low light.

Yes they need skills to do things because they are the skill monkey. But I assume you mean they have to use move silently and hide as the two skills to move stealthily? So does anyone else who wants to try this and since most other classes have far less skills to work with imagine how much more difficult it say for the fighter to do this.

What two skills do they need for spotting hidden guards? They would need to just use spot or search if actively looking for the hidden guards that is only one skill.

At least the rogue is not in the same boat as the sorcerer who in 3.0 did not have one skill that was based one primary attribute and 3.5 have only one.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Elves are not typical low level guard monsters.

Depends on where you are.

If you're being asked to break into an elvish domicile, odds are the guards will have pointy ears. And brigands know no racial boundaries, either.

Besides, even half-elves are sleep resistant.

 

[Niccodaemus]

Turn it into a roleplaying hook. Feature or bug is irrelevant.

Excellent stuff!!!!!

 

[Plane Sailing]

I consider it to be an important feature.

If there is a bug around it is in any system which allows cheap wands or scrolls to be made which make the utility magic available ubiquitously. Remove that and you remove any problem.

 

[howandwhy99]

Magic is typically formulaic and resource based in D&D. Skills and powers are typically at will at all times.

Making magic spells at will means they are "magic" skills readily available without loss or drawback to their use.

The game can be that way. It's up to group. But making magic "special" has generally been understood as making it rare. But then even "miraculous" skill is miraculous because of rarity there too.

 

[Saeviomagy]

As a general rule, utility without cost is an issue.

In 3.5e this comes because you have cheap wands and scrolls (or even just 'I leave my low level slots free, so I can solve any problem with 10 minutes memorisation time').

There are systems where wizards have limitless utility, and they still work, simply by imposing a cost on that utility (shadowrun charges meaningful character resources for spells and then each spell has the potential to cripple it's caster, mage allows on-the-spot creation of spells, but threatens the caster with paradox etc). Sure the wizard could cast knock, but it might kill him to do so.

4e has issues because rituals are so specific and ineffective that they usually end up without a niche where one might use them. They tend not to be able to do anything that a skill couldn't do instead, but they cost a lot of money and take a lot of time. It sort of swings the other way, to a place where magic is never used for utility and is instead reserved for killing stuff.