I like D&D

Celebrim

Legend
Here's the thing I have to confess.

I like D&D. I've played a lot of systems, and I'm familiar with even more, but you know; time and time again, it's D&D that I end up playing.

I like hit points. I think that they are the best RPG mechanic ever invented hands down. The invention of the hit point is like the invention of fire. It allows you to invent everything else, and it never becomes obselete.

I like classes. I think the class is a great mechanic. Point buy character creation systems have their place, as do some of the more esoteric free form systems, but they don't accomplish what D&D typically is aiming for quite as well as classes do.

I like Vancian Magic. It's easy to use. It's quick in play. It's less bookkeeping, because let's face it, you average point buy makes mana harder to accurately track than ammunition for your bows - and how many people manage to accurately track that? As long as you are paying more attention to the what of magic rather than the hows and whys of its working, it allows for a pacing of how magic is used within the game that I think neatly emmulates a wide variaty of fantasy fiction. Having a few powerful effects that you must carefully conserve until the right moment is probably the best system you could have for emulating the narrative of classic fantasy fiction.

I like Alignment. I think the two axis alignment system is one of the core defining features of D&D and serves to give D&D a lot of its heft. I grant that many people don't 'get' alignment and that that has from time to time included the author's of D&D, but I get it and I know how to explain it and I've never had players have a problem with it once its explained right.

I like clerics. I like armor class. I like variable weapon damage. I dislike called shots and hit placement.

In short, I like D&D. I tweak and twiddle with D&D a lot and I think that its far from a perfect system, but I like D&D. I like every version of D&D. I like OD&D. I like 1st edition AD&D. I like 2nd edition AD&D. I like BECMI. I like 3rd edition D&D. I even admire some of the goals of 4e D&D even though I think it fell really flat upon execution of the whole. Most importantly, I understand why people who like each version the most like it, and why they admire it, and why it helps them have fun. Each version has had its distinctive problems, but each got something right and until 4e came along they all looked pretty much alike.

You see, I've always thought that my problem with 4e is that it was made for people who didn't like D&D. It was made for people frustrated with D&D's little annoyances. Heck, it may have even been made by people who had themselves become frustrated with D&D's problems - small and large.

But above all the things I wish for 5e, I would wish this: that the people who make it love it as well as I do or better, and are trying to make D&D for people who love D&D. You people who don't like hit points, classes, D20's, alignments and Vancian magic, I understand your discomfort - I've been there - but if you don't like it then go make your own game. Leave D&D alone for those that do like it.
 

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Roland55

First Post
Here's the thing I have to confess.

I like D&D. I've played a lot of systems, and I'm familiar with even more, but you know; time and time again, it's D&D that I end up playing.

I like hit points. <SNIP>

I like classes. <SNIP>

I like Vancian Magic. <SNIP>

I like Alignment. <SNIP>

I like clerics. I like armor class. I like variable weapon damage. I dislike called shots and hit placement.

In short, I like D&D. I tweak and twiddle with D&D a lot and I think that its far from a perfect system, but I like D&D. <SNIP>

You see, I've always thought that my problem with 4e is that it was made for people who didn't like D&D. It was made for people frustrated with D&D's little annoyances. Heck, it may have even been made by people who had themselves become frustrated with D&D's problems - small and large.

But above all the things I wish for 5e, I would wish this: that the people who make it love it as well as I do or better, and are trying to make D&D for people who love D&D. You people who don't like hit points, classes, D20's, alignments and Vancian magic, I understand your discomfort - I've been there - but if you don't like it then go make your own game. Leave D&D alone for those that do like it.

Hmm. A bit defensive ... a bit tired ... more than a bit nostalgic ... but eloquent and heart-felt.

I'm more a "big tent" guy myself, but even I would hate to see D&D Next disavow (in that elegant Mission Impossible sense) these things. I believe Mearls & Company expressed their vision for D&D Next as a game where we could all sit down and play together.

I like that vision. And, like Celebrim, I like D&D.:)
 

Celebrim

Legend
Hmm. A bit defensive ... a bit tired ... more than a bit nostalgic ...

All true.

I'm more a "big tent" guy myself...

I'm a big tent sort myself, but I'm more of the sort that believes its easier to take things out than put them in. Some thought toward making a system modular and easy to tear out is good, but on the whole I'd rather people have to wreck a bit of creative destruction on the system than we be left to make it all up ourselves (not that we won't anyway).

Part of the reason I like D&D, maybe the main reason I like D&D, is I think it does a good job of letting us all sit down and play together. This is I think the result of having been invented bottom up through the course of play in an organic fashion. It's not the product of ivory tower theory about what would be fun, but the product of years of adopting rules, throwing rules out, and settling on something that seemed fun.

It took me a long time in my RPG career to realize how essential that was. It's hard not to have all these bright ideas about how much better everything would be if it was only more realistic, more elegant, more flexible, more like this sort of fiction, and so forth, but when you actually play your bright ideas you find that well, in practice they aren't maybe as great as you'd thought that they'd be. I use to take it for granted that D&D was only good because of nostalgia or because everyone had played it. It took me a long time to humble myself enough to stop and try to figure out what was right with it instead of just what was wrong with it. When I did actually turn my thought to what was right about it, it was like a revelation. I haven't ever looked at game rules the same way since.
 

Roland55

First Post
"Easier to take things out than put them in."

Interesting. I'll have to think about that before commenting anymore.

One thing I'm absolutely sure of: I like D&D.
 

Pilgrim

First Post
I'm a big tent sort myself, but I'm more of the sort that believes its easier to take things out than put them in. Some thought toward making a system modular and easy to tear out is good, but on the whole I'd rather people have to wreck a bit of creative destruction on the system than we be left to make it all up ourselves (not that we won't anyway).
Idk, I guess I just can't see how taking out is easier than putting in. Though I understand how someone might feel certain things may get left out and therefore need to be made up.

But all in all, if I wanted to buy just a scanner, I wouldn't want to buy an All-In-One unit (scanner, printer, fax) just to use the scanner. Or like someone else said in another thread, if you wanted a peperoni pizza, you wouldn't order a supreme pizza then pick off everything until you're left with just peperoni.

It's just not logical.
 

Keldryn

Adventurer
You see, I've always thought that my problem with 4e is that it was made for people who didn't like D&D. It was made for people frustrated with D&D's little annoyances. Heck, it may have even been made by people who had themselves become frustrated with D&D's problems - small and large.

I agree with everything you've said. Can somebody XP Celebrim for me? I apparently need to spread it around first.

One interesting point though... I've read elsewhere that "3e seems like it was made for people who didn't like D&D, by people who didn't like D&D" or something to that effect. The more things change...
 

Celebrim

Legend
IOne interesting point though... I've read elsewhere that "3e seems like it was made for people who didn't like D&D, by people who didn't like D&D" or something to that effect. The more things change...

The only way I can imagine that is if it was said by someone that thought 2nd edition was the one true edition. Third edition was almost a love letter to grognards that went out of its way to apologize for abandoning the 1st edition fans - right down to bringing back the Barbarian as a core class.

Third edition struck me in many ways as a cleaner better thought version of my 1st edition house rules. Heck, I even recognized the 'scent' monster ability as someone's plug for a logical hole in the 1st edition rules and one that had come up in play and caused arguments at the table. The third edition rules were clearly written by someone who had played A LOT of D&D and who hadn't been completely happy with the direction 2nd edition had gone in.
 

Crazy Jerome

First Post
One interesting point though... I've read elsewhere that "3e seems like it was made for people who didn't like D&D, by people who didn't like D&D" or something to that effect. The more things change...

When some of the original 3E team said prior to 4E launch that 4E should build on what 3E did, and thus push it closer to Hero System and GURPS--I suddenly realized why I had liked 3E more at first than later. I went to 3E from Hero and GURPS to get back closer to D&D, not stay where I was.

I'm fairly certain that some 1E guys had similar complaints about some of 2E's obsession with copying White Wolf.

I've always liked D&D. It is merely that the things I liked about it weren't 100% in sync with whatever others liked, and I noticed I wasn't the only one, either. I don't even much disagree with the list of features in the OP, but embedded alignments always struck me as a bridge too far. Having them wasn't a problem. But to tie them so close to the heart of the game, was. Oh, and why does the 2 axis grid get primacy over the original Chaotic/Neutral/Lawful? :angel:
 

Celebrim

Legend
Idk, I guess I just can't see how taking out is easier than putting in.

Destruction is far easier than creation.

But all in all, if I wanted to buy just a scanner, I wouldn't want to buy an All-In-One unit (scanner, printer, fax) just to use the scanner.

Sure. But if you wanted a printer, scanner, fax, you wouldn't want to buy a scanner and then build the printer and fax out of a half gallon of spent moter oil, some spare copper wire and some beach sand. Technically, I'm sure you could make a printer and fax with little more than raw materials, but would you want to?

Or like someone else said in another thread, if you wanted a peperoni pizza, you wouldn't order a supreme pizza then pick off everything until you're left with just peperoni.

Sure, but if you did want a supreme pizza, you wouldn't want to grow the olives, onions, and peppers for it, raise a pig, harvest them, make sausage, order a pepperonni pizza, and develop a process for flash cooking the other ingredients in a way that they could be integrated with the already cooked pepperoni pizza. Picking everything off, distasteful though it may be, is a comparitively easy arrangement.

It's just not logical.

Errr.... If you say so.
 

Croesus

Adventurer
Destruction is far easier than creation.

And if people were talking about destroying the system, you'd have a point.

Imagine you live in a house with multiple rooms. You decide that you want the dining and living rooms to be one room. So you knock out a couple walls figuring - voila - you'll have one room. Then the entire ceiling crashes in on you because the wall you took out was load-bearing...

After spending literally years trying to remove some rules from 3E that I didn't want, I realized just how difficult it can be to remove elements from the game. Is it easy to add rules modules on top of simple core rules? I don't know - we'll find out. But having tried it myself, I'm absolutely certain that it is not always easy to subtract rules already integrated into a system. YMMV
 

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