thecasualoblivion
First Post
I think you're slightly misinterpreting my posts. I was probably not as clear as I maybe should have been.
4e's roles have a strong minis/tactical movement/positioning quality to them. This is good for 4e, because 4e loves it some minis skirmishes, and, like anything that the game considers important, it should have a lot of detail.
4e Roles, in part, define how, under what conditions, and with what effects, you move your piece of plastic, or others' pieces of plastic.
This is a "strong tactical movement quality."
It's not pure, that's not ALL the roles are about, but it is pronounced, the roles DO have this angle.
As an example, a "defender" in 4e is more than just a class with a high AC, or a class with a marking ability. It is also, in part, a class that limits the movement of enemies, after engaging it in melee.
That is a pronounced angle for minis combat to the role.
The defender does other stuff, too. But it has that angle. Every role has that angle. It is a big part of how they do their jobs. It's not the only part, but it's an important part, and it's not a part that can be easily overlooked (except by some Leaders, maybe).
That's part of why I don't see these as pure combat roles. The "actual" combat roles don't have anything to do with movement, because movement isn't a part of what combat is when you boil it down to its defining feature (a game of who gets to 0 first).
That's why I think the 4e roles are useful for 4e, and a great shorthand, but also why I resist the idea that "defenders have always existed!"
Not really. Not in the same way that 4e uses the concept. A 1e fighter is not a Defender because he has high AC. 4e's use is more specific than that.
1. I still don't buy your assertion that the minis focus comes from or is tied up in the roles themselves, as opposed to being an overall focus of 4E.
2. Defenders are all about marking. Defenders are the only class that can assert their own mark at will. While marking is new to 4E, it doesn't in and of itself require minis. You can add Combat Challenge, Divine Challenge, and Swordmage Aegis to AD&D Fighters, Paladins, and Fighter/Mages and they will all work seamlessly with or without minis. Defense is the other half of marking because if you are going to encourage things to hit you, you need to be able to survive doing so or you suck at life.
3. 4E itself is all about moving pieces of plastic. The roles are simply a reflection of this. They are not the source.
4. While Paladins and Swordmages have some powers abilities that limit enemy movement, they have no more or less than other classes/roles do. Denying enemy movement is a unique feature of the Fighter class, and not the Defender role as a whole. At-Will marking and high survivability(which is again not limited to AC) are the constants among all three Defenders, and are exclusive. Here is a list of At-Will movement denial:
Cleric-Str Clerics get decent opportunity attacks
Fighter-Combat Challenge and Superiority class features dominate enemy movement
Paladin-Str Paladins get decent opportunity attacks
Ranger-TWF and Beastmaster Rangers get decent opportunity attacks
Rogue-Brutal Scoundrels and Ruthless Ruffians get decent opportunity attacks
Warlock-Dire Radiance damages enemies who move closer to you
Warlord-Decent opportunity attacks, Viper's Strike makes shifting provoke opportunity attacks
Wizard-Ray of Frost slows
Swordmage-Assault Swordmages and Intelligent Blademasters have good opportunity attacks, Booming Blade damages enemies who move
Artificer-has nothing that prevents enemy movement
Barbarian-Has good opportunity attacks
Druid-has good opportunity attacks while wildshaped, Flame Seed, Grasping Claws, and Storm Spike all interfere with enemy movement
Bard-nothing by itself, but Misdirected Mark plus a Fighter equals can't move
5. Defenders have always existed. They have existed in that they attempted to do what 4E Defenders did, and weren't as effective at it because they lacked the marks.
6. While the 1E Fighter didn't have the tools the 4E Fighter does, he attempts to achieve the same end.