D&D General "I make a perception check."

[Cruentus]

This process can give way quickly to old school skill play, and if thats what you are after great. Key is making sure the players know the expectations. Also, make it interesting and not frustrating. If you have to carefully dissect every room to find the clue to move on, I'd be quickly calling for your removal as GM. So, its a two way street, if your players are looking to short cut, it might be because they find that boring.

I think there are degrees of that old school play. I certainly agree and wouldn't want to have to ask my players to describe the correct puzzle, place, item, etc. to progress, but even general descriptions of their activities can usually be sufficient. You do, however, need to give solid descriptions of what players are seeing.

We've found that its been much easier to adjudicate, and to play in.

 

[Reynard]

my thing is that there is alot of overlap...

so with history I know about her past... would not her past include both her tenets of faith she is known for and what abilities she is known for
so with religion I know about her tenets of faith... but not what she did to prove them (aka her history?)

also I would hate to know all of that info requiring 3 skills and/or 3 checks... that is just too much time at table.

What were Cleopatra's religious practices like?

 

[Jer]

Emphasis mine.

Not to quibble, but "I look around" shouldn't trigger a perception check. it should provide all the information someone would gain from looking around, without a roll.

So tell them that. Explicitly when they say "I make a Perception check" ask them "why" and then tell them "oh, you don't need to make a check for that".

That's another reason why I guess this isn't a problem for me. My players are trained to try to do everything without rolling first and when they're stuck that's when they start looking at what skills they have available for some inspiration about what to do next. It took a while to get them there - in 3e they wanted to roll for everything and I kept having to tell them "that doesn't need a roll". Eventually they got it.

 

[Reynard]

"I use Search to find the cup - whoops, this game doesn't have Search, what's that skill called?" Players who are doing this are engaging with the game so I'm happy - much better than players who are asked "what are you doing" and they respond with a dumb look because they weren't engaged.

Why not just "I search the table to find the right cup."?

 

[billd91]

Emphasis mine.

Not to quibble, but "I look around" shouldn't trigger a perception check. it should provide all the information someone would gain from looking around, without a roll.

Shouldn't that depend on whether or not there's something there where perceiving it would be uncertain? Honestly, "I look around" is perceiving what's around you - admittedly, in a very general and not focused on anything specific way. But if you do look around and there's a halfling cultist lurking around the bushes waiting to waylay you, that seems like perception check territory.

 

[Jer]

Why not just "I search the table to find the right cup."?

Because they're thinking about the skills that are there for inspiration about what they can try to do next usually. They're framing it as the skills they have available often because they're trying to problem solve but their imaginations are stuck so they're scanning their character sheet for ideas of what to do next. Or they're thinking about the skills their character has and doing the same.

 

[Reynard]

So tell them that. Explicitly when they say "I make a Perception check" ask them "why" and then tell them "oh, you don't need to make a check for that".

I thought I was clear in my OP that that is what I do and the problem is after years some players STILL open with "I make a perception check."

One thing to note in case it is getting lost in translation: I don't have a problem with "Can I make a perception check." My answer for that is usually, "What are you doing?" and they then describe their action. Sometimes as a result I call for a perception check, sometimes and investigation check. More often than not I just tell them what they find, because they looked. That's how eyes work.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

What if there is a false cup? What if one is trapped? What if the trap is contact poison versus a pressure plate that flips the table? What if the table is a mimic?

okay... what does any of that have to do with weather you understand the intent or not?

My point is that specificity matters, and if you require some arbitrary level of specificity all the time, you avoid the issue of telegraphing the trap/trick by asking for more detail than usual only when there is something amiss.

if specificity only matters rarely I will only ask for it rarely... but you would always be welcome to give more then I ask for...

all I need is for the speaker and the listener to both get the intent... and context is fine.

lets take that room full of cups, and a player said "Can I perception?" and I know there is a false cup and not the real one... then they find the false one. lets say that there is both a false AND real one... they find both and either was we move to the next step.
lets say one is trapped and it is the false one (cause come on trap one will seem more real then non trapped) then they still find both and make a save vs the trap. and it doesn't matter if it is a contact poison or pressure plate EXCEPT in what they wear... if I say "You find two cups that it might be but you find one is a little slimey give me a Con save vs poison" (or fort save or poison save what ever edition) and the player says "Um, I'm in plate, does it go through my armored gauntlet and the glove under it?" that is really the same next step anyway.
what if the table is a mimic... roll initiative instead of perception but you are all surprised.

 

[Reynard]

Shouldn't that depend on whether or not there's something there where perceiving it would be uncertain? Honestly, "I look around" is perceiving what's around you - admittedly, in a very general and not focused on anything specific way. But if you do look around and there's a halfling cultist lurking around the bushes waiting to waylay you, that seems like perception check territory.

You should already know that. That's what passive perception is for.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Emphasis mine.

Not to quibble, but "I look around" shouldn't trigger a perception check. it should provide all the information someone would gain from looking around, without a roll.

why? if something is hidden with a stealth of 17 and I 'look around' and you don't give me a chance to see the stealth creature I would be even MORE mad then the 'word games' that I am not a fan of...

what WOULD trigger that perception check? "I look for hidden enemies"?