D&D General "I make a perception check."

[Reynard]

This is entirely irrelevant to the topic at hand…

We're 1400 posts in. The "topic at hand" has been thoroughly beaten to death.

 

[Maxperson]

You literally just ignored the quoted portion of the rule book that says that character movement rates are based on mapping, and that characters can't map while fleeing danger.

It doesn't say characters can't map, but just that no mapping can be done while characters are running. It seems that "players" and "characters" are being used interchangeably, though. Otherwise the mapping wouldn't affect character movement rates and it wouldn't reference players searching, since it's the characters that search.

I know that the DM always required the mapper's PC to have paper and ink or mapping wasn't allowed. What we drew was an object on the PC in question and could be stolen, soaked, or burned by a fireball.

 

[Maxperson]

We're 1400 posts in. The "topic at hand" has been thoroughly beaten to death.

Only if you successfully perceive it so.

 

[Charlaquin]

We're 1400 posts in. The "topic at hand" has been thoroughly beaten to death.

Fair enough

 

[Reynard]

It doesn't say characters can't map, but just that no mapping can be done while characters are running. It seems that "players" and "characters" are being used interchangeably, though. Otherwise the mapping wouldn't affect character movement rates and it wouldn't reference players searching, since it's the characters that search.

I know that the DM always required the mapper's PC to have paper and ink or mapping wasn't allowed. What we drew was an object on the PC in question and could be stolen, soaked, or burned by a fireball.

Obviously I am asserting a preference and opinion, because you are right: the author is unclear because of how they use player in the passages. I don't recall whether 1E talked much about mapping, and if it did I don't know if it specified whether it was a player or character action.

I am running Rappan Athuk (5E) currently over Fantasy Grounds and after a little though I decided not to make the players map. I probably would have at the table but it was too big of a hassle with FG's sub par drawing tools.

 

[James Gasik]

Obviously I am asserting a preference and opinion, because you are right: the author is unclear because of how they use player in the passages. I don't recall whether 1E talked much about mapping, and if it did I don't know if it specified whether it was a player or character action.

I am running Rappan Athuk (5E) currently over Fantasy Grounds and after a little though I decided not to make the players map. I probably would have at the table but it was too big of a hassle with FG's sub par drawing tools.

Yep, the 1e DMG asserts you can't map while running (page 68), and this section here:

The PHB supports this by saying:

...show danger- traps, tricks, monsters.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I would suggest that was because traditionally it was used in areas that were, to one degree or another, both extensive and labyrinthine. It is entirely possible to get lost both leaving and trying to find your way back to specific places under those circumstances; I've seen people regularly do so with extensive suburban housing complexes on numerous occasions. I think you're giving people credit for more consistent spatial memory than is commonly the case, especially under the circumstances at hand (similarly, I've seen people get lost in extensive buildings, especially when the signage was inadequate.

Essentially, if your premise was true, most maps wouldn't exist in the first place.

Partially true I'd say.

I can go to an unfamiliar labyrinthine building or situation (like the skywalks in Indianapolis during Gencon) and wander around. Then turn and wander back to my starting point. Now, I can easily get lost and turned around and take longer to get back. But I don't believe for a second that I could not eventually find my way back.

Some maps, like maps of countrysides, are useful because getting off course even a little can spell disaster over large distances. But maps of smaller structures, like a single complex? Those aren't necessary for finding the entrance and exit. Those are for convenience so you aren't wasting time walking in circles.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Partially true I'd say.

I can go to an unfamiliar labyrinthine building or situation (like the skywalks in Indianapolis during Gencon) and wander around. Then turn and wander back to my starting point. Now, I can easily get lost and turned around and take longer to get back. But I don't believe for a second that I could not eventually find my way back.

"Eventually" is doing some heavy lifting here.

Some maps, like maps of countrysides, are useful because getting off course even a little can spell disaster over large distances. But maps of smaller structures, like a single complex? Those aren't necessary for finding the entrance and exit. Those are for convenience so you aren't wasting time walking in circles.

Or, in a D&D context, walking into a different problem when you've already expended the resources you need to deal with it.

 

[Reynard]

Partially true I'd say.

I can go to an unfamiliar labyrinthine building or situation (like the skywalks in Indianapolis during Gencon) and wander around. Then turn and wander back to my starting point. Now, I can easily get lost and turned around and take longer to get back. But I don't believe for a second that I could not eventually find my way back.

Some maps, like maps of countrysides, are useful because getting off course even a little can spell disaster over large distances. But maps of smaller structures, like a single complex? Those aren't necessary for finding the entrance and exit. Those are for convenience so you aren't wasting time walking in circles.

One presumption we make, I think, is that professional dungeoneers have some skill with measuring distances and replicating them to scale. I am a land surveyor by trade and I would wager my ability to estimate distances by sight or pace against most folks' in a second.

 

[Maxperson]

Obviously I am asserting a preference and opinion, because you are right: the author is unclear because of how they use player in the passages. I don't recall whether 1E talked much about mapping, and if it did I don't know if it specified whether it was a player or character action.

I am running Rappan Athuk (5E) currently over Fantasy Grounds and after a little though I decided not to make the players map. I probably would have at the table but it was too big of a hassle with FG's sub par drawing tools.

This is from the 1e DMG.

"If movement is into an area where the party has not already been and mapped, then immediately roll again to determine if the party will be lost the next day also."

"Mapping During Flight: No mapping is ever possible. Give no distance measures in moving the pursued. Give no compass directions either!"

"While the construction is underway, the character should be exploring and mapping the terrain beyond the core area."

It seems the characters were the ones mapping in 1e.