D&D 4E I miss 4E

[MrMyth]

But I'm not saying that it is simply reprinting old material - and I already corrected you on that. I am saying that it is mainly reformatting, repackaging, and rehashing old material (which is also different from "reprinting"). There is a big difference between simply, which means only, and mainly, which means "for the most part, but not entirely."

Well, ok. But still - I don't think either of the Heroes books actually qualifies. The bulk of the content is new. Now, you seem to be saying that this isn't the case because it is a rehashing of older material - but the same could be applied to all the Power books. The PHB2 and PHB3 are the only real 'new' player content books, by that standard.

Regardless of to what degree Essentials actually provides new material, from what I've seen so far it is not enough for me to buy everything, and it is also not enough for me to not feel disappointed in WotC's output over the 7-8 month period in question because not only is there a relatively small amount of actually new material, but it is included in reformatting of old material, and it is almost entirely new "crunch" with little to no new "fluff."

The thing is, I think the last part is more important than the first part. There is new content. What is lacking is flavor-heavy books with lots of fluff. That is absolutely true. That is a legitimate complaint. It is just a very different one than what you were presenting at the start of this thread.

Anyway, I'm not trying to step in and say you can't complain about WotC's current product line or be disappointed in the lack of products you like. I was just trying to point out that some of your statements - that the material coming out was solely "reprinting, reworking, and rehashing of old material" didn't actually ring true to me.

To answer the actual question you ask, though... Why would WotC feel this was a good idea, to launch this big line and potentially leave current customers somewhat in the cold...

In the end, I imagine they thought it was a good idea because that is what their research said, and what their designers suggested. A big launch of the Essentials line might have seemed more likely to root new players in the game while still producing enough to keep most current players interested. That doesn't mean it will work out that way... but I imagine that they did have legitimate reasons for focusing entirely on Essentials for this period, rather than diluting the launch with other products that might have thrown off new players.

Time will tell how successful they will be, in the end.

 

[Raikun]

I think my feelings are in the minority, although maybe a significantly sized minority. To be honest I am surprised at how many people seem to be taking to Essentials whole-heartedly.

I'm not surprised at all. If it was crap they were releasing, I'd be surprised, but so far it's been quite a bit of really good stuff.

 

[Mercurius]

Anyway, I'm not trying to step in and say you can't complain about WotC's current product line or be disappointed in the lack of products you like. I was just trying to point out that some of your statements - that the material coming out was solely "reprinting, reworking, and rehashing of old material" didn't actually ring true to me.

Once again, let me correct you on something: I am not saying that Essentials is "solely" (or "simply") anything. You keep on throwing this back at me, even after I keep on correcting you. You seem very insistent on painting me into a black and white perspective which I just don't hold.

To answer the actual question you ask, though... Why would WotC feel this was a good idea, to launch this big line and potentially leave current customers somewhat in the cold...

In the end, I imagine they thought it was a good idea because that is what their research said, and what their designers suggested. A big launch of the Essentials line might have seemed more likely to root new players in the game while still producing enough to keep most current players interested. That doesn't mean it will work out that way... but I imagine that they did have legitimate reasons for focusing entirely on Essentials for this period, rather than diluting the launch with other products that might have thrown off new players.

Time will tell how successful they will be, in the end.

Yes, true. I do think they could have mixed in some "other stuff" as well, not just Essentials. Why not keep the usual production going but at a much slower pace? So instead of 1-2 new hardcovers a month, why not 1-2 every two months?

 

[fanboy2000]

I suspect one of the reasons it seems like Essentials is dominating the scene in Gamma World. It's 3 box sets (originally scheduled to be released 3 months in a row) are taking the place of 3 hardbacks, but many of us think of Gamma World as separate game, not a 4e setting or supplement.

 

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

I'm not into Essentials. As far as lack of new material; they've seemed to cover so much ground already that, subjectively-speaking, I'd be really curious what other core books they could make that could even be all that interesting ; chopstick-fighter, aqua-mage? So I fine with giving them some time to think about some new stuff. I guess it would be unfair to the DDI subscribers, but I'd like to see all the Dragon stuff compiled. And I'm confused about Monster Vault (or whatever its called), is that for Essentials or the norm? (Please don't tell me both). They could redo a lot of the mosters too, given the damage erratta and all the weaksauce monsters.
As far as no more hardcovers, that would be a shame, but the world is ending, don't you know?
I think they should make a Fiend Folio again.

 

[blalien]

The truth is that the Essentials books are useful, but they're not very exciting. The new content is useful for bringing in new players, and the compendiums are generally convenient. For experienced players, there's nothing to be excited about at least until the middle of 2011.

If Wizards would just say, in no uncertain terms, "We totally promise we will get back to the hardcore stuff," I would be happy. The shadow book and Ravenloft setting look promising, but we don't really know anything about them yet. If they don't get back on track soon, I will be very disappointed.

 

[Lord Ernie]

The truth is that the Essentials books are useful, but they're not very exciting. The new content is useful for bringing in new players, and the compendiums are generally convenient. For experienced players, there's nothing to be excited about at least until the middle of 2011.

Says you. I'm loving the new Mage subclass for my Wizard (I'm gonna be respeccing him), and my cleric|invoker is poaching a whole bunch of powers off the Warpriest.

There's also the Essentials Assassin playtest, which looks to be great fun, and tactically interesting.

 

[Mercurius]

The truth is that the Essentials books are useful, but they're not very exciting. The new content is useful for bringing in new players, and the compendiums are generally convenient. For experienced players, there's nothing to be excited about at least until the middle of 2011.

If Wizards would just say, in no uncertain terms, "We totally promise we will get back to the hardcore stuff," I would be happy. The shadow book and Ravenloft setting look promising, but we don't really know anything about them yet. If they don't get back on track soon, I will be very disappointed.

Agree on all accounts, although I also agree with Lord Ernie that some of the new Essentials stuff is good, I am just not excited about the products as a whole because they're largely re-workings of old material and will be able to get the new stuff through DDI updates. Hopefully. Someday.

 

[MrMyth]

Once again, let me correct you on something: I am not saying that Essentials is "solely" (or "simply") anything. You keep on throwing this back at me, even after I keep on correcting you. You seem very insistent on painting me into a black and white perspective which I just don't hold.

Look, the perspective I'm objecting to is the one you put forward in the first thread. Where you said, "Sure, it is updated and errata-ed with a few new bells and whistles, but we're not really seeing anything new".

And that statement just isn't true. We're looking at 9 or 10 new builds/class equivalents, plus potentially many new monster stat-blocks. It certainly isn't as much new content as we usually get, but it is new content, and it is there. Your initial post said otherwise. Yes, perhaps it was just your indulgence in hyperbole - but with all the misinformation and false ideas floating around about Essentials, it did not seem a good idea for me to let such an inaccurate statement stand.

If what you are saying now is that no, you never meant to say that, you were just disappointed that the new content in Essentials didn't appeal to you, rather than trying to say it didn't exist... fair enough, I've got no objections to such a position!

Yes, true. I do think they could have mixed in some "other stuff" as well, not just Essentials. Why not keep the usual production going but at a much slower pace? So instead of 1-2 new hardcovers a month, why not 1-2 every two months?

Well, I can think of several reasons. If they wanted to really make sure Essentials came out right, they may have allocated pretty much the entire design team to focusing on it - and dragging a handful of people away for one or two side projects didn't seem like a good approach. Or they didn't wanted new players to be dragged off track by other releases in the midst of the Essentials wave.

I mean, I think they could have gotten away with an approach like you suggest. But I just don't see how the strategy they chose is in any way incomprehensible. They have a new product rolling out. They want the line to focus on it for half a year. That seems a reasonable business strategy, likely informed by their design teams and market research. Maybe it will crash and burn, maybe not, but I don't see anything to indicate it is an inherently flawed approach.

 

[Mercurius]

Look, the perspective I'm objecting to is the one you put forward in the first thread. Where you said, "Sure, it is updated and errata-ed with a few new bells and whistles, but we're not really seeing anything new".

But MrMyth, we've had a whole series of posts since then and you are still reacting to what I said in one small sentence in my initial post. It is like you ignored the rest of the first post and everything I have said since. What's up with that?

Look, I admit that the above statement is not entirely true, but nor is it entirely false. But let me use an analogy to give you a better sense of why I'm not so pleased with the release schedule during the seven months in question.

How many Essentials products, other than Dungeon Tiles, are there? We've got the Red Box, the two Heroes books, Rules Compendium, DM's Kit, and Monster Vault. That's six books. Now let's imagine taking all the new stuff out of those six books and putting them into separate books. How many books would we get? Two? Maybe even one? In that entire span of time we're getting only one or two books-worth of new material, but it is spread through six new books/products. This is one of the reasons I'm not buying all the Essentials stuff, because I can't justify the price for the amount of old material that is being padded around the new, and the fact that almost all of the new material will be available in a DDI update.

Well, I can think of several reasons. If they wanted to really make sure Essentials came out right, they may have allocated pretty much the entire design team to focusing on it - and dragging a handful of people away for one or two side projects didn't seem like a good approach. Or they didn't wanted new players to be dragged off track by other releases in the midst of the Essentials wave.

I mean, I think they could have gotten away with an approach like you suggest. But I just don't see how the strategy they chose is in any way incomprehensible. They have a new product rolling out. They want the line to focus on it for half a year. That seems a reasonable business strategy, likely informed by their design teams and market research. Maybe it will crash and burn, maybe not, but I don't see anything to indicate it is an inherently flawed approach.

Incomprehensible? No, I don't think so either. Reasonable? I suppose. How I would have done it? No, not really. How would I have done it? Well, without thinking about it too much I would have made the Red Box a true starter set with a few playable levels and not just a "learn how to play D&D" product that is worthless after one play through. I would have followed it with another box set that fleshed out the rest of Heroic tier, so we'd have a new version of the old red and blue, basic and expert box sets. I think Rules Compendium was an excellent idea, so I would keep that, but I would have combined the two Heroes books into one hardcover, a Player's Handbook 4. People introduced through the game through the Red and Blue boxes could move from there to the PHB4 for more detailed options.

I haven't seen The DM's Kit or Monster Vault so I can't really comment, but my sense is that they could have been either combined or integrated into the red and blue boxes. So we'd have:

Red Box - levels 1-3
Blue Box - levels 4-10.
Rules Compendium - as is.
Player's Handbook 4 - hardcover combo of the two Heroes books.
DM's Toolbox - includes DM's guide, Monster book, etc.

After that I would return to "4E proper" and reduce the number of hardcovers and reserve the format for core expansions (PHB, DMG, MM), campaign guides and one or two other luxury items. I would make reference books and some splats into digest softcovers, and other splats (powers books, Adventurer's Vault type books) into full-sized softcovers. I would use the box set format for mega campaigns and theme books, ala the Shadowfell.

Again, this is just me thinking as I write this. I like the idea of a variety of formats but I don't like the idea of hardcovers disappearing altogether or everything becoming digest books. Hopefully that won't happen.