D&D General I need a D&D counseling session! Help! (Re: Update ("Argument-Stopping Protocols" -- please advise!))
- Thread starter Dungeonosophy
- Start date
Longspeak
Adventurer
That's true. I've had many friends over the years I simply wouldn't game with, but would love to hang out with, get a beer with, etc. Not every friend need to be included in every activity.
Dungeonosophy
Legend
Having vented many of my painful stories, and made "The Case" against my problem-player, I would now like to share the good facets of his personality, our friendship, and our gaming. Otherwise, you may be wondering how on earth we are even friends in the first place, given our friction around the RPG table.
Here are few of possibly many good things, which immediately come to mind:
1) Before we starting playing D&D, he and I and his wife read the entire Middle-earth stories aloud together. We met each week and took turns reading. We read The Silmarillion, Children of Hurin, Unfinished Tales, The Hobbit, Adventures of Tom Bombadil, the Lord of the Rings, and key tales from the History of Middle-earth series. Meeting once a week, it took us exactly two years. That was enriching.
(The "Middle-earth Read-Through Club" then turned into the D&D Club.)
2) My friend supports my Patreon. He has steadily and materially supported my creative writing. Over the years, this has added up to $1700.
3) Recently, another player was going through some hard times, and we stopped the session to address his situation. My friend gave really kind-hearted and solid advice. I was really impressed - it was better advice than I could've thought of. At other times too, when he gives a person a ride home, he will listen and serve as a sounding board.
4) He did honor some of the agreements which I called for at the beginning of March:
-He did at least follow through with picking up a copy of the PHB and DMG for himself. We also split the cost of Xanathar's Guide and Volo's Guide.
-I asked that the garage and walkway to the game-room be cleared of clutter for safety reasons, since one of the other players has some mobility difficulties. And he did that promptly and conscientiously.
5) My friend has a pretty nice space to play - a dedicated office / gameroom with a large carved wooden table that can fit 7 people.
6) Besides playing Tabletop RPGs, our D&D Club also reads D&D fiction together: novels (e.g. The 3E-era Keep on the Borderlands novel) and short stories (e.g. from old issues of DRAGON mag). We take turns reading aloud. Sometimes we'll go out to a cafe and read. That has been fun. The problem-player is no problem there - he reads well.
7) My problem-player bought me the Art & Arcana coffee-table book as a gift.
8) He has helped me scan and print various things for my RPG research and writing. (He has a scanner and good printer.)
9) As the corona-thingy has arrived here in upstate New York, just last week my problem-player outright gave me a video-cam and mic for my computer, so that we might still be able to play via Zoom.
10) He has fixed my computer when it crashed. And only asked a pittance for the repair. And has advised me when I need to buy a new one. He is a tech saint.
11) Last month, he served as driver for a 1.5 hour trip to a university, when four us went to go see a D&D play together. (It's called "She Kills Monsters".) It was hilarious. A good time.
12) In our LARP era last summer, we had tons of fun traipsing through parks and trails while playing D&D (with a deck of cards).
13) He does keep a neat binder with his character sheets and spells. I've emulated him in this regard.
14) He is basically a good person, and devoted parent.
***
Y'all may be right: it might just be that he only gets super-intense, emotionally distressed, and wonky around gaming. One thing which is coming clearer through this Counseling thread, is remembering that his wife warned me from the start (when we first started playing D&D, last January), that he has always had social difficulties in regard to intensity and competitiveness when playing any sort of game.
Remembering back, I thought and hoped I would be able to skillful and deftly redirect and channel that intense current. And I feel I (and he) have, in some ways, at some times, partially succeeded. But the dam has repeatedly overflowed, and I became overwhelmed.
Here are few of possibly many good things, which immediately come to mind:
1) Before we starting playing D&D, he and I and his wife read the entire Middle-earth stories aloud together. We met each week and took turns reading. We read The Silmarillion, Children of Hurin, Unfinished Tales, The Hobbit, Adventures of Tom Bombadil, the Lord of the Rings, and key tales from the History of Middle-earth series. Meeting once a week, it took us exactly two years. That was enriching.
(The "Middle-earth Read-Through Club" then turned into the D&D Club.)
2) My friend supports my Patreon. He has steadily and materially supported my creative writing. Over the years, this has added up to $1700.
3) Recently, another player was going through some hard times, and we stopped the session to address his situation. My friend gave really kind-hearted and solid advice. I was really impressed - it was better advice than I could've thought of. At other times too, when he gives a person a ride home, he will listen and serve as a sounding board.
4) He did honor some of the agreements which I called for at the beginning of March:
-He did at least follow through with picking up a copy of the PHB and DMG for himself. We also split the cost of Xanathar's Guide and Volo's Guide.
-I asked that the garage and walkway to the game-room be cleared of clutter for safety reasons, since one of the other players has some mobility difficulties. And he did that promptly and conscientiously.
5) My friend has a pretty nice space to play - a dedicated office / gameroom with a large carved wooden table that can fit 7 people.
6) Besides playing Tabletop RPGs, our D&D Club also reads D&D fiction together: novels (e.g. The 3E-era Keep on the Borderlands novel) and short stories (e.g. from old issues of DRAGON mag). We take turns reading aloud. Sometimes we'll go out to a cafe and read. That has been fun. The problem-player is no problem there - he reads well.
7) My problem-player bought me the Art & Arcana coffee-table book as a gift.
8) He has helped me scan and print various things for my RPG research and writing. (He has a scanner and good printer.)
9) As the corona-thingy has arrived here in upstate New York, just last week my problem-player outright gave me a video-cam and mic for my computer, so that we might still be able to play via Zoom.
10) He has fixed my computer when it crashed. And only asked a pittance for the repair. And has advised me when I need to buy a new one. He is a tech saint.
11) Last month, he served as driver for a 1.5 hour trip to a university, when four us went to go see a D&D play together. (It's called "She Kills Monsters".) It was hilarious. A good time.
12) In our LARP era last summer, we had tons of fun traipsing through parks and trails while playing D&D (with a deck of cards).
13) He does keep a neat binder with his character sheets and spells. I've emulated him in this regard.
14) He is basically a good person, and devoted parent.
***
Y'all may be right: it might just be that he only gets super-intense, emotionally distressed, and wonky around gaming. One thing which is coming clearer through this Counseling thread, is remembering that his wife warned me from the start (when we first started playing D&D, last January), that he has always had social difficulties in regard to intensity and competitiveness when playing any sort of game.
Remembering back, I thought and hoped I would be able to skillful and deftly redirect and channel that intense current. And I feel I (and he) have, in some ways, at some times, partially succeeded. But the dam has repeatedly overflowed, and I became overwhelmed.
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Dungeonosophy
Legend
This is wise - thank you.
Dungeonosophy
Legend
Besides our legacy of friendship, a couple other practical factors as to why I've stuck it out for so long:
1) We live in a rural, unpopulated area, where there may not be many D&D players. So I was trying to work with what we have.
2) My own space is not very conducive to play, since my home is basically a rented room + tiny kitchen, and no table. I could buy a fold-up table and chairs though.
1) We live in a rural, unpopulated area, where there may not be many D&D players. So I was trying to work with what we have.
2) My own space is not very conducive to play, since my home is basically a rented room + tiny kitchen, and no table. I could buy a fold-up table and chairs though.
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Dungeonosophy
Legend
Well, here's our Shared World campaign log. You're welcome to have a look.
Amidst the wrangling, we played some good D&D.
jmucchiello
Hero
Doesn't matter. This friend could be St Teresa in real life. Doesn't matter. If when they are at the table they cause you grief, you can't play D&D with them. It's really that simple.
If you can't tell this person, "Dude, you're a great friend. We love going out for drinks together. Seeing a movie. Watching a game on TV together. And we can still do those things. But you drive me so crazy at D&D I just don't want to play so I'm not letting you play in the game I'm DMing," without them giving you attitude, then maybe they aren't your friend.
If you need to write a 20 page screed against one person, you need to reevaluate the need for them to be in your life. If that problem is limited to a single activity, exclude them from that activity.
Ultimately, this is your peace of mind we're talking about. The other person should have some respect for how you feel if they are your friend.
Nebulous
Legend
I really, really, really don't think you are going to able to "fix" the way the player thinks and behaves. Not in any major way, and not in a lasting way. Certainly not enough for you to enjoy the hobby. I would find a way to remove him.
Nebulous
Legend
Ah. Makes sense. You could try more online games perhaps, that has had a major surge with the corona cancelling in person games. Although the learning curve can steeper for some people than others.
Nebulous
Legend
i guess you could say I am occultist too, but I won't reveal my preferred belief system. But your belief system stems from a writer? I'm confused.
Nevermind I looked it up
You need to tell him all of this. Like literally print this out and read it to him. You obviously really care about him. Tell him he is a good friend but you are getting frustrated. If he’s your friend he will understand and want to make things better.
Nebulous
Legend
No @Big Bucky, the OP has already told his best friend these things endlessly. This Enworld post is a desperate last straw to see how other people would respond to his terrible situation. The OP has showed his best friend all this crap, it is not helping, he said so.
I think sometimes people get locked into their positions and it helps to step back and remember why you're friends in the first place. This is not a D&D issue. It's a communication and respect issue. That's what needs to be examined.
And I think it's pretty clear that OP is going to continue to play with this person no matter what anyone says. He's just venting.
Nebulous
Legend
Yeah. I think he will too now that you mention that.
I am late to this party, so someone may have already mentioned this, so forgive me if this is a repeat.
But, Table Rule 7 and Table Rule 8 amount to, "I can screw up, and you must forgive me, but if you screw up, that's too darned bad, just take it." That is asymmetrical enough to be... unjust?
And Rule Five "Table Serenity"... telling folks they can't even express honest emotions is a problem.
I'm gong to go with - if you need a list of rules like this, you may have missed a major issue of simply having the overall goals of play aligned at the table.
But, Table Rule 7 and Table Rule 8 amount to, "I can screw up, and you must forgive me, but if you screw up, that's too darned bad, just take it." That is asymmetrical enough to be... unjust?
And Rule Five "Table Serenity"... telling folks they can't even express honest emotions is a problem.
I'm gong to go with - if you need a list of rules like this, you may have missed a major issue of simply having the overall goals of play aligned at the table.
Dungeonosophy
Legend
Whoa, whoa there, thanks for the counsel everyone. I'm feeling better.
I don't need further speculation about what course of action I may choose to take.
It's not "just" venting. I've never taken my problems to the people before like this. I was desperate.
I only intended at first to simply get feedback on establishing an Argument Protocol. But events escalated this week, and I let it all out.
What action I have come to is this:
I'm writing a hand-written letter and mailing it to the player. For the letter, I'm going to snag some of the language from jmucchiello and Big Bucky. And include a print-off of some or all of this ENWorld convo.
As for the exact parameters, I'm going to sleep on it, but my inclination is that, for my peace of mind, I can't game with this friend anymore.
The definiton of "game" may change over time. Perhaps I will feel steady enough to engage in mechanics-less/freeform storytelling formats with him again in the future, such as Play-by-Post (we live in corona-zone N.Y.) and LARP, or not. I don't know.
But I do know that, barring some unprecedented future change in character, I cannot DM with him in a TTRPG that involves rules and mechanics -- which is nearly every TTRPG on earth.
I don't need further speculation about what course of action I may choose to take.
It's not "just" venting. I've never taken my problems to the people before like this. I was desperate.
I only intended at first to simply get feedback on establishing an Argument Protocol. But events escalated this week, and I let it all out.
What action I have come to is this:
I'm writing a hand-written letter and mailing it to the player. For the letter, I'm going to snag some of the language from jmucchiello and Big Bucky. And include a print-off of some or all of this ENWorld convo.
As for the exact parameters, I'm going to sleep on it, but my inclination is that, for my peace of mind, I can't game with this friend anymore.
The definiton of "game" may change over time. Perhaps I will feel steady enough to engage in mechanics-less/freeform storytelling formats with him again in the future, such as Play-by-Post (we live in corona-zone N.Y.) and LARP, or not. I don't know.
But I do know that, barring some unprecedented future change in character, I cannot DM with him in a TTRPG that involves rules and mechanics -- which is nearly every TTRPG on earth.
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
That sounds like a responsible decision, @Dungeonosophy
FrozenNorth
Hero
With all this in mind, it honestly seems that both of you would have more fun with either a D&D adjacent board game (like Gloomhave) or a DMless RPG.
Eltab
Lord of the Hidden Layer
This is good to read. Remember this when he is driving you up a wall.
St. Paul (paraphrase): Whatever is of good repute, think on these things.
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