I need advice, Tower / Heavy shield ? ?

[Tatsukun]

I need some advice. My two handed fighting PC (Barbarian 2, Fighter 4, Champion of Gwynharwyf 2) has saved up the gold and is in the market for an animated shield. So the question is Tower or Heavy shield.

He is one of the two primary frontline fighters in the group. The other guy is a high Hp low Ac tank / hitter. This guy is also a hitter, but has fewer Hp so he tends to do his best to avoid damage. He often uses Combat Expertise in fights to stay alive.

All in all, is the +2 AC from the tower shield worth the -2 to attacks? On one hand, this guy hits pretty often (+14 melee with his primary weapon), and gets hurt pretty often (right now his AC is 24, and he has 78 Hp).

But, a +2 weapon costs a lot more than +2 armor, so I'm tempted to think that attack is more useful.

I assume others have made this decision, any advice?

Thanks in advance for the advice!

-Tatsu

 

[Darklone]

I hate animated... ok

Go for the heavy shield. Good offense is your best bet, your barbarian will never have a good AC anyway if you don't put most of your money into it.

 

[Gregor]

Ya, forget the shield and go straight for the weapon, the extra +2 AC isnt really worth it. You wanna smash stuff and smash it fast enough so that it doesnt smash you back.

But a potion belt and stock up on potions of Blur or pay for a wand of blur or something for the party wizard to use on you. The percentile to miss you completely would probably be better than a raw AC boost.

Cheers,

 

[Tessarael]

Why are you spending money on animated (+2)?

I think this may be a mistake - are there better ways of improving your AC? To animate the shield takes a standard action and costs a +2 enhancement bonus. Hrmm, then again there is no time limit on it, so I guess you can wander around with it animated beside you.

When you're worried about AC, I would consider taking the Monkey Grip feat (Complete Warrior), using your two-handed weapon in one hand and the shield in the other.

Regards the -2 to attack, there is obviously no point in using Tower Shield if you have Combat Expertise (you can already trade -2 to attack for +2 AC), unless you're trying to max out your AC. I assume this is not the case for your character.

What is the cost and benefit of an Animated Heavy Shield? The shield must be at least +3, +1 to make it magical, then +2 for animated. So a cost of 9,000gp for +3 AC.

For 8,000gp you can get Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, and Gloves of Dexterity +2, giving a total of +3 AC.

Price out what your magic item options are based on what slots you have available.

Below are tables that I put together to figure out how best to optimize AC. They may be of some help.

---

look at the best options for a DEX 10 Fighter, with
different amounts of money to spend:

Armor bonus
===========
  Cost  Total Bonus
  ----  ----- -----
     5      5    +1 padded 
    +5     10    +2 leather
    +5     15    +3 hide 
   +35     50    +4 scale mail 
  +100    150    +5 chainmail
   +50    200    +6 splint
  +400    600    +7 half plate
  +900   1500    +8 full plate
 +1150   2650    +9 full plate +1
 +3000   5650   +10 full plate +2
 +5000  10650   +11 full plate +3
 +7000  17650   +12 full plate +4
 +9000  26650   +13 full plate +5

Shield bonus
============
  Cost  Total Bonus
  ----  ----- -----
     3      3    +1 light wooden 
    +4      7    +2 heavy wooden 
   +23     30    +4 tower (-2 to hit)
 +1150   1180    +5 tower (-2 to hit)
 +3000   4180    +6 tower (-2 to hit)
 +5000   9180    +7 tower (-2 to hit)
 +7000  16180    +8 tower (-2 to hit)
 +9000  25180    +9 tower (-2 to hit)

Dex bonus
=========
  Cost  Total Bonus
  ----  ----- -----
  4000   4000    +1 Gloves of Dexterity +2
+12000  16000    +2 Gloves of Dexterity +4 (9000gp for mithral full plate)
Not useful with tower shield:
+20000  36000    +3 Gloves of Dexterity +6 
Not useful with mithril full plate:
+55000  91000    +4 Gloves of Dexterity +6, Manual of Quickness of Action +2
+55000 146000    +5 Gloves of Dexterity +6, Manual of Quickness of Action +4

Natural armour bonus
====================
  Cost  Total Bonus
  ----  ----- -----
  2000   2000    +1 Amulet of Natural Armor +1 
 +6000   8000    +2 Amulet of Natural Armor +2 
+10000  18000    +3 Amulet of Natural Armor +3 
+14000  32000    +4 Amulet of Natural Armor +4 
+18000  50000    +5 Amulet of Natural Armor +5 

Deflection bonus
================
  Cost  Total Bonus
  ----  ----- -----
  2000   2000    +1 Ring of Protection +1 
 +6000   8000    +2 Ring of Protection +2 
+10000  18000    +3 Ring of Protection +3 
+14000  32000    +4 Ring of Protection +4 
+18000  50000    +5 Ring of Protection +5 

Insight bonus
==============
  Cost  Total Bonus
  ----  ----- -----
  5000   5000    +1 Dusty Rose Ioun Stone 

 Spend   Total AC 
 =====   ===== ==
     0       0 10 -
    +3       3 11 light wooden shield
    +4       7 12 heavy wooden shield
    +5      12 13 padded 
    +5      17 14 leather 
    +5      22 15 hide 
   +23      45 17 tower shield (-2 to hit)
   +35      80 18 scale mail 
  +100     180 19 chainmail 
   +50     230 20 splint 
  +400     630 21 half plate 
  +900    1530 22 full plate 
 +1150    2680 23 full plate +1 
 +1150    3830 24 tower shield +1
 +2000    5830 25 Ring of Protection +1 
 +2000    7830 26 Amulet of Natural Armor +1 
 +3000   10830 27 full plate +2 
 +3000   13830 28 tower shield +2
 +4000   17830 29 Gloves of Dexterity +2
 +5000   22830 30 full plate +3 
 +5000   27830 31 tower shield +3
 +5000   32830 32 Dusty Rose Ioun Stone
 +6000   38830 33 Ring of Protection +2 
 +6000   44830 34 Amulet of Natural Armor +2 
 +7000   51830 35 full plate +4 
 +7000   58830 36 tower shield +4
 +9000   67830 37 full plate +5 
 +9000   76830 38 tower shield +5
+10000   86830 39 Ring of Protection +3 
+10000   96830 40 Amulet of Natural Armor +3 
+14000  110830 41 Ring of Protection +4 
+14000  124830 42 Amulet of Natural Armor +4 
+18000  142830 43 Ring of Protection +5 
+18000  160830 44 Amulet of Natural Armor +5 
+21000  181830 45 Gloves of Dexterity +4, mithral full plate +5

With heavy shield instead of tower shield, AC is 2 worse, but no
-2 to hit penalty.

Interestingly, for a Fighter with Dexterity 16, the armor table is:

Armor bonus (including Dexterity 16)
====================================
  Cost  Total Bonus
  ----  ----- -----
     0      0    +3 -
    +5      5    +4 padded 
    +5     10    +5 leather
    +5     15    +6 hide 
   +35     50    +7 scale mail 
  +150    200    +8 breastplate 
 +1150   1350    +9 breastplate +1
 +1300   2650   +10 full plate +1 (Dex bonus to AC is only +1)
 +3000   5650   +11 full plate +2
 +9000  14650   +13 mithral full plate +2 (Dex bonus to AC of +3)
 +5000  19650   +14 mithral full plate +3
 +7000  26650   +15 mithral full plate +4
 +9000  34650   +16 mithral full plate +5

And the complete table with Dexterity 16 is something like:

 Spend   Total AC 
 =====   ===== ==
     0       0 13 -
    +3       3 14 light wooden shield
    +4       7 15 heavy wooden shield
    +5      12 16 padded 
    +5      17 17 leather 
    +5      22 18 hide 
   +35      57 19 scale mail 
  +100     207 20 breastplate
 +1150    1357 21 breastplate +1 
 +1150    2307 22 heavy wooden shield +1 
 +1373    3830 25 full plate +1 (Dex bonus to AC of +1), 
                  with tower shield +1 (-2 to hit)
 +2000    5830 26 Ring of Protection +1 
 +2000    7830 27 Amulet of Natural Armor +1 
 +3000   10830 28 full plate +2 
 +3000   13830 29 tower shield +2
 +8977   22807 29 mithral full plate +2 (Dex bonus to AC of +3), 
                  with heavy wooden shield +2 (no to hit penalty)
 +5000   27807 30 mithral full plate +3
 +5000   32807 31 heavy wooden shield +3
 +5000   37807 32 Dusty Rose Ioun Stone
 +6000   43807 33 Ring of Protection +2 
 +6000   49807 34 Amulet of Natural Armor +2 
 +7000   56807 35 mithral full plate +4 
 +7000   63807 36 heavy wooden shield +4
 +9000   72807 37 mithril full plate +5 
 +9000   81807 38 heavy wooden shield +5
+10000   91807 39 Ring of Protection +3 
+10000  101807 40 Amulet of Natural Armor +3 
+14000  115807 41 Ring of Protection +4 
+14000  129807 42 Amulet of Natural Armor +4 
+18000  147807 43 Ring of Protection +5 
+18000  165807 44 Amulet of Natural Armor +5

For a Wizard with Dex 10 for 0% arcane spell failure:

Armor bonus
===========
  Cost  Total Bonus
  ----  ----- -----
  1000   1000    +1 Bracers of Armor +1
 +3000   4000    +2 Bracers of Armor +2
 +5000   9000    +3 Bracers of Armor +3
 +7000  16000    +4 Bracers of Armor +4
 +9000  25000    +5 Bracers of Armor +5
+11000  36000    +6 Bracers of Armor +6
+13000  49000    +7 Bracers of Armor +7
+15000  64000    +8 Bracers of Armor +8
+17000  81000    +9 Bracers of Armor +9
+19000 100000   +10 Bracers of Armor +10

Shield bonus
============
  Cost  Total Bonus
  ----  ----- -----
  1015   1015    +1 mithral buckler
 +1150   2165    +2 mithral buckler +1
 +3000   5165    +3 mithral buckler +2
 +5000  10165    +3 mithral buckler +3
 +7000  17165    +3 mithral buckler +4
 +9000  26165    +3 mithral buckler +5

Dex bonus
=========
  Cost  Total Bonus
  ----  ----- -----
  4000   4000    +1 Gloves of Dexterity +2
+12000  16000    +2 Gloves of Dexterity +4 (9000gp for mithral full plate)
+20000  36000    +3 Gloves of Dexterity +6 
+55000  91000    +4 Gloves of Dexterity +6, Manual of Quickness of Action +2
+55000 146000    +5 Gloves of Dexterity +6, Manual of Quickness of Action +4

Natural armour bonus
====================
  Cost  Total Bonus
  ----  ----- -----
  2000   2000    +1 Amulet of Natural Armor +1 
 +6000   8000    +2 Amulet of Natural Armor +2 
+10000  18000    +3 Amulet of Natural Armor +3 
+14000  32000    +4 Amulet of Natural Armor +4 
+18000  50000    +5 Amulet of Natural Armor +5 

Deflection bonus
================
  Cost  Total Bonus
  ----  ----- -----
  2000   2000    +1 Ring of Protection +1 
 +6000   8000    +2 Ring of Protection +2 
+10000  18000    +3 Ring of Protection +3 
+14000  32000    +4 Ring of Protection +4 
+18000  50000    +5 Ring of Protection +5 

Insight bonus
==============
  Cost  Total Bonus
  ----  ----- -----
  5000   5000    +1 Dusty Rose Ioun Stone 

 Spend   Total AC 
 =====   ===== ==
     0       0 10 -
 +1000    1000 11 Bracers of Armor +1
 +1015    2015 12 mithral buckler
 +1150    3165 13 mithral buckler +1
 +2000    5165 14 Ring of Protection +1 
 +2000    7165 15 Amulet of Natural Armor +1 
 +3000   10165 16 Bracers of Armor +2
 +3000   13165 17 mithral buckler +2
 +4000   17165 18 Gloves of Dexterity +2
 +5000   22165 19 Bracers of Armor +3
 +5000   27165 20 mithral buckler +3
 +5000   32165 21 Dusty Rose Ioun Stone
 +6000   38165 22 Ring of Protection +2 
 +6000   44165 23 Amulet of Natural Armor +2 
 +7000   51165 24 Bracers of Armor +4
 +7000   58165 25 mithral buckler +4
 +9000   67165 26 Bracers of Armor +5
 +9000   76165 27 mithral buckler +5
+10000   86165 28 Ring of Protection +3 
+10000   96165 29 Amulet of Natural Armor +3 
+11000  107165 30 Bracers of Armor +6
+12000  119165 31 Gloves of Dexterity +4
+13000  132165 32 Bracers of Armor +7
+14000  146165 33 Ring of Protection +4 
+14000  160165 34 Amulet of Natural Armor +4 
+15000  175165 35 Bracers of Armor +8
+17000  192165 36 Bracers of Armor +9
+18000  210165 37 Ring of Protection +5 
+18000  228165 38 Amulet of Natural Armor +5 
+19000  247165 39 Bracers of Armor +10
+20000  267165 40 Gloves of Dexterity +6

 

[Tatsukun]

When you're worried about AC, I would consider taking the Monkey Grip feat (Complete Warrior), using your two-handed weapon in one hand and the shield in the other.

Um, I don't think that's how monkey grip works. It doesn't reduce the size by one, it lets you use a one size larger weapon in the same number of hands. A medium PC can't use a great sword made for a medium creature in one hand, but s/he can use a longsword made for a large creature in one hand (which also does 2D6). But, longsword feats would apply, not greatsword feats.

The problem there is that this guy has used a lot of feats for his weapon (a great maul, we have house-ruled to 2D6, 20x3) and if he starts using a different weapon, those feats are gone.

Also, he has power attack, so if he wants to trade -2 to hit for damage he can do it already; and speaking of power attack, he uses it pretty often, and a two-handed weapon is much better there.

Regards the -2 to attack, there is obviously no point in using Tower Shield if you have Combat Expertise (you can already trade -2 to attack for +2 AC), unless you're trying to max out your AC. I assume this is not the case for your character.

That makes sense. Good point.

What is the cost and benefit of an Animated Heavy Shield? The shield must be at least +3, +1 to make it magical, then +2 for animated. So a cost of 9,000gp for +3 AC.

For 8,000gp you can get Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, and Gloves of Dexterity +2, giving a total of +3 AC.

He already has all that. I should have listed it out, sorry...

AC 10
Dex 3 (with his gloves)
Armor 10 (+2 Mithral full plate)
Natural 1 (Amulet)
Deflection 1 (Ring)
Total = 25

Other slots filled - Cloak (resistance +1), Helm (Wisdom +2)
Empty slots - one ring, belt, vest, boots, bracers, goggles

Price out what your magic item options are based on what slots you have available.

Below are tables that I put together to figure out how best to optimize AC. They may be of some help.

Yeah, for +5 to AC (+1 animated tower shield), 9,000 looks great. But when you count in the -2 to hit, it doesn't seem as good. A heavy shield's +3 to AC for 9,000Gp is less exciting, but might still be the best AC/Gp for this guy.

Side note, he will take "craft wondrous item" next level, and will start cranking out the gear, so wondrous items are essentially half cost. He has second level Champion of Gwynharwyf spells (BoED), but others in the group can cast just about anything and will help crafting.

So, am I missing something, or is a +1 animated heavy shield the way to go?

Thanks for the help!

-Tatsu

 

[Tessarael]

Yep, looks like Animated Heavy Shield +1 is your best option for 9,000gp. I was incorrect about Monkey Grip.

 

[Gort]

Wouldn't you be better off with a buckler +5 instead?

 

[Tatsukun]

Well, a +5 buckler would give more AC, but it would give a -1 to attack, and it costs more to but, and more per point of Ac.

+5 buckler -- +6 Ac, -1 attack, 25,165Gp (4,195 Gp/Ac)
+1 Animated Heavy Shield -- +3 Ac, 9,159Gp (3,053 Gp/Ac)

But it's moot because our DM has ruled that you loose a buckler's AC bonus when you attack with a two handed weapon.

It looks like the heavy shield is the way to go. Thanks all!

-Tatsu

 

[Darklone]

I like your DM

Improved Buckler Defense is crap if you allow it for twohanded weapons.