I need help sorting the MM by real world culture

[Dogbrain]

Endland didn't exist in the time period I'm making these lists for, it was all Celtic. I'm not interested in cultures or creatures that aren't part of the ancient world.

Okay, Maynard, I'll spell it out even more plain: The specific things that you cite were known to the "Germanic Tribes" that became the English. They IMPORTED THEM to the British Isles along with the rest of their culture.

Did Germany exist in ancient times? Or was it all just part of some other culture, like the Norse/Scandenavians?

"German" is not identical to "From the modern country of Germany". Germanic tribes that were thoroughly distinct from the Norse were fought by Julius Caesar and mentioned by earlier Greeks.

I wasn't actually sure of this one anyway. If they are a much later legend, or just a term to describe normal giants, then they are off the list.

Ettins/Eotonas has been synonymous to "giants" for millenia. Only after D&D did they become distinct creatures.

Crap, there goes most of my celtic creatures. I thought they were heavy into spirits and fey creatures. Oh well, I guess I have more research to do on what kinds of mythic creatures the ancient celts actually had.

They were, just not most of the ones attributed to them, which were Germanic in origin.

Likewise you ARE aware that "Gaelic" is not identical to "Celtic" and that many aspects of Irish culture are not even Gaelic--actually Germanic, imported during "dark age"/early medieval times (from around AD1000, with the Vikings), right? The so-called "Celtic knotwork" is actually of scandinavian origin.

The descriptions I read said that Firbolg and Fomorians were brutish, evil, giants. I'll have to find the web site I found those descriptions on.

The Fomor may have been Chthonic deities, given that so little detail can be found of them besides them being the dread and sworn enemies of the Firbolg, but the Firbolg were likely a real people, eventually subjugated by the Danaan. The Danaan were also real human beings subjugated by the Milesians, who were themselves subjugated by the Gaels. However, they also lived 3000 or so years ago, which means that a lot of stuff-and-nonsense got added to the story over time. Likewise, the deities of the region were easy to conflate with the earlier peoples. Egypt saw a similar phenomenon in its claim that Ra and Osiris were Pharoahs of the land--not just symbolically. Likewise, Japan holds that its first emperor was the literal son of Amaterasu Omikami, sun goddess. That does not mean that there was no man who founded the first Japanese imperial dynasty, only that a lot of other information has been muddled. The Firbolg, Danaan, and Milesians lived before literacy in Ireland.

Now, it should be noted that Fomorians, Firbolg, Danaan, etc. ONLY appear in Ireland, and to call them "Celtic" betrays gross ignorance of what "Celtic" constitutes. Where are all the Gaulish references? Where is everything for the Galatians?

The Gauls were an independent and Celtic people in the ancient world. Why pretend that they do not exist? Simply presuming that their culture is identical to early medieval Ireland's would be as bad as putting Las Vegas in the middle of the setting.

 

[Desdichado]

Manticores (aka Androphagus; both names mean 'man eater'), hippogriffs, chimeras; most of the 'part of this animal, part of that animal' creatures are from Greek myth, sometimes transmogrified by midieval mysticism.

Although that doesn't mean the Greeks invented them, of course. Sphinx like creatures are common in Assyrian, Egyptian and Babylonian sculpture, although later important in the Orpheus myth. Griffins were probably a Scythian invention; both the Greeks and the Chinese associate those animals with the Scythians/Saka.

 

[Dogbrain]

Although that doesn't mean the Greeks invented them, of course.

Absolutely. According to the American Heritage Dictionary:

Middle English manticores, from Latin mantichōra, from Greek mantikhōras, variant of martiokhāras, from Old Iranian *martiya-khvra- (man-eater)

 

[Desdichado]

"German" is not identical to "From the modern country of Germany". Germanic tribes that were thoroughly distinct from the Norse were fought by Julius Caesar and mentioned by earlier Greeks.

Well, not really. All of the Germanic tribes show a remarkable cultural uniformity until some of them come under the aegis of Christianity. It just so happens that a linguistic shift that differentiated the North Germanic tribes from the "West" Germanic tribes occurred at a time when the former were still pagan and the latter were becoming Christian creating the false impression that they were a markedly different cultural tradition. After all, the split and then subsequent spread of the Germanic groups all happened during historical times, and we can point fairly easily to the parahistorical records of their similarities.

Their material cultures were the same, their pagan folkloric tradition was the same (English Thur, German Donnar, Norse Thorr, from proto-Germanic *Thunraz, to use one example, and the legend of Siegfried from Germany is pretty much identical to the legend of Sigurd in Iceland.) The only difference was that the more southerly Germanic tribes came under the umbrella of the flailing Roman empire and thus adopted some cultural traits from their neighbors.

Of course, the East Germanic groups are less well-known in terms of their culture, being more noted for their interactions with the Huns and the Romans and the Alans than for anything else.

 

[Klaus]

You might want to list Griffons, (The) Chimaera and most mixed-animals beasts among the Persian/Assyrian monsters.

And of course, the Phoenix hails from Phoenicia...

I have a picture of an ancient silver/gold battleaxe that depicts a boar being lifted by the throat by a human with two eagle heads. Could be a cool monster. Also, the god of diseases Pazuzu had human body, leonine head and claws and eagle wings. Might make a cool creature too.

 

[Shadowdragon]

OK, although discussing the origins of lots of D&D monsters is fascinating, this thread is getting kind of confusing and I need to make this topic a little more specific. I am doing this in preperation for an OGL ancients campaign I'm goiog to run very soon. What I'm interested in is a campaign set around 1500 BC. I would like to pick creatures out of various monster manual books (in particular the MM, the MM2, the Fiend Folio, the Ravenloft MM, and the Epic Level Handbook as those are the only monster manual books I have) and sort them into these five cultures: Greek, Egyptian (including Assyria if it was a part of Egypt furing this time period. Or was it part of Persia?), Norse, Celtic (mainland area. Gaul? Or seperate into mainland creatures (if there are any) and Irish, Scottish, and Brittish creatures), and Arabian/Persian (I think these two are similar enough to combine, aren't they?). I think I've got Greek monsters sorted out but I still need help with the others.

Once I get the five cultures I'm interested in sorted out I may start working on other cultures (like african, indian, germanic etc.). I definately don't want any creatures that are more modern (like anything created/discovered after about 500BC). Creatures from cultures like Assyria, Phoenicia, etc. are probably best if they are included in one of the five cultures I'm interested in. If they don't fit anywhere then they should probably just be left out.

 

[tarchon]

Would the Stirge be a vampiric bird, or would I just use the Stirge's stats from the MM? If Erinyes are The Furies were there more than three? I thought The furies were a trio of vengeance spirits, while Erinyes were the spirits of deceased family members. There is no Greater Lamia, at least not in the 3.5 MM. The only Lamia is the half human/half lion. Is that what you mean by Greater Lamia?

"Furiae" ("madnesses") is the Latin name for the Greek Erinyes or Eumenides. They were sometimes regarded as being the particular entities, Alecto, Tisiphone, and Megaera (who particularly punished offenses against relatives), but the term could also refer to a less definite multitude of vengeful spirits.

 

[Dogbrain]

set around 1500 BC. ... and Arabian/Persian (I think these two are similar enough to combine, aren't they?)

No. Their languages are from different families (Indo-European vs. Semitic), cultures are likewise quite different.

I definately don't want any creatures that are more modern (like anything created/discovered after about 500BC).

That means no elementals.

Likewise, there should be no division among "fairy" vs. "demon" vs. "spirit". They all sort of jumble in together, although it's malevolent ones that get called "demons"--but they're often not considered to be materially different from the others. Actually, separating those categories from "god" is rather fuzzy, too.

 

[Shadowdragon]

No. Their languages are from different families (Indo-European vs. Semitic), cultures are likewise quite different.

That means no elementals.

Likewise, there should be no division among "fairy" vs. "demon" vs. "spirit". They all sort of jumble in together, although it's malevolent ones that get called "demons"--but they're often not considered to be materially different from the others. Actually, separating those categories from "god" is rather fuzzy, too.

Ok then, separate lists for Persians and Arabians it is.

I never planned on dividing fairies, demons, and spirits. I kinda thought they were all thought of as the same thing, but I wasn't 100% sure. Thanks for confirming it.

I'd also just like to say; the web sites I've suggested by people so far have been great for giving descriptions of various mythological creatures, but they aren't so good at placing creatures. Are there any web sites that specifically state which culture each creature is from, or at least where the majority of legends about each creature is from? Web sites that have dates of creation/discovery would also be a big help.

 

[tarchon]

The Umber Hulk and the Rust Monster come from ancient Etruscan myths. And the Modron come from, uuuh, old American Indian legends. No, really!

You're thinking of the Umbrian Hulk.