I rarely complain about the price of an RPG product but . . .

[Glyfair]

Did they? If so I hope they succeed now that they're back. : ] I think more gaming diversity is a good thing; if we really want to see prices come down, competition is one way to get it.

I'm not sure it will work that way, with the limited RPG market. I don't think too many people decide what system they will play based on price. Within a system they might make the decision.

I think more competition will just end up splitting the market. If players migrate to a different system, then less players will be playing each game system leading to higher prices. Remember, most RPG companies aren't working with very high margins on products.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Is it necessary to charge such high prices...

Yes.

People don't have to like it, and people don't have to buy it. But nobody's getting gauged.

The RPG market is a very low profit industry. The prices have gone up between the early days of D&D and today, but they have not kept up with inflation. Some RPG companies--not WotC, but others--barely make more than 5% profit on many of their products. This is despite the fact that creatives (writers and artists) in this industry are paid far less than we could make in other industries. Just as an example, writing short fiction for mainstream magazines pays (depending on the magazine) anywhere from three to ten times the average industry standard rate in RPGs. Yet even with such cheap overhead, most RPG books aren't very profitable.

I'm sorry if the books are too expensive for you, I really am. I don't want to see this industry lose anyone. But you need to accept the fact that--unless someone finds a way to drastically expand the size of the market--prices aren't likely to go down anytime soon. The industry simply won't support it.

 

[Mouseferatu]

As an additional note, my comments above refer to prices in the industry as a whole. I agree with Phil, however, that the cost for that particular book, given the size, is more than I'd pay. Even my understanding only goes so far , and it's why I'm not a proponent of licensing major properties like Star Wars.

 

[wingsandsword]

And look what happened to West End Games, they went out of business and are now trying to get back into it.

Actually, from everything I've ever read and heard, WEG's failure didn't come from lack of cash flow/poor sales, it came from an owner who was actively funnelling money out of the company coffers to fund other failing businesses he owned. It was making money, it just had upper management who was spending it faster than it could be made.

 

[philreed]

The RPG market is a very low profit industry. The prices have gone up between the early days of D&D and today, but they have not kept up with inflation. Some RPG companies--not WotC, but others--barely make more than 5% profit on many of their products. This is despite the fact that creatives (writers and artists) in this industry are paid far less than we could make in other industries. Just as an example, writing short fiction for mainstream magazines pays (depending on the magazine) anywhere from three to ten times the average industry standard rate in RPGs. Yet even with such cheap overhead, most RPG books aren't very profitable.

Absolutely. I in no way meant that I thought all books were priced too high. The Star Wars Miniatures book is, for me, too high. Most other books on the market are priced right (or, at times, too low -- the Iron Kingdoms Character Guide would have been a great deal even if the price had been increased by $5).

 

[arscott]

Yes.

People don't have to like it, and people don't have to buy it. But nobody's getting gauged.

The RPG market is a very low profit industry. The prices have gone up between the early days of D&D and today, but they have not kept up with inflation. Some RPG companies--not WotC, but others--barely make more than 5% profit on many of their products. This is despite the fact that creatives (writers and artists) in this industry are paid far less than we could make in other industries. Just as an example, writing short fiction for mainstream magazines pays (depending on the magazine) anywhere from three to ten times the average industry standard rate in RPGs. Yet even with such cheap overhead, most RPG books aren't very profitable.

I'm sorry if the books are too expensive for you, I really am. I don't want to see this industry lose anyone. But you need to accept the fact that--unless someone finds a way to drastically expand the size of the market--prices aren't likely to go down anytime soon. The industry simply won't support it.

Bull.

I'm not arguing that the market's bad for almost everybody. But That's not the case for Wizards. They basically own the d20 market.
they could undercut their competitors and still make twice as much profit. And yet they're charging five bucks more than everybody else.

Why? Because they know that they can. They can't be treating their employees much better than everybody else, otherwise why would the wizard big-names always be leaving to start their own outfits? And they sell several times as many copies of their books, their cost per item is significantly lower. Their quality isn't any better than any of the other established names.

And they're not losing money because of retailer discounts, because they charge the same amount whether or not the book is being sold at a reduced price. Online retailers can afford to discount because they act as their own distributors, and have no staff or storefront costs to speak of. Besides, Wizards probably sells a smaller percentage online than everyone else. After all, Wizards products are the only ones a FLGS can afford to stock.

The real difference is this: Most guys charge what they do because that's how much money they need to feed their kids for the next few months. Wizards charges what it does because Hasbro stockholders have larger appetites.

 

[velm]

Yes.

People don't have to like it, and people don't have to buy it. But nobody's getting gauged.

The RPG market is a very low profit industry. The prices have gone up between the early days of D&D and today, but they have not kept up with inflation. Some RPG companies--not WotC, but others--barely make more than 5% profit on many of their products. This is despite the fact that creatives (writers and artists) in this industry are paid far less than we could make in other industries. Just as an example, writing short fiction for mainstream magazines pays (depending on the magazine) anywhere from three to ten times the average industry standard rate in RPGs. Yet even with such cheap overhead, most RPG books aren't very profitable.

I'm sorry if the books are too expensive for you, I really am. I don't want to see this industry lose anyone. But you need to accept the fact that--unless someone finds a way to drastically expand the size of the market--prices aren't likely to go down anytime soon. The industry simply won't support it.

I am sorry, I have to disagree 100%. To charge the prices that they do for the quality is NO where accurate. As I stated earlier, look at the quality of the products, read the reviews on the typos and other errors that are being put in those products (by WOTC primarily). I see NO justification for charging something like $20, plus tax for something like MASTERS OF THE WILD a 98 page book. 98 pages. softcover. Read the reviews on the latest MM. See what the typos are. What is the cost of that? $30+?
IF the company wants to charge a sum like that, then fine, they can charge whatever they want. But there are people like me, who are NOT going to pay it. I am sure there are others who are. But take a gaming group of 6 people, out of those 6 people, lets say one buys it. The rest will share it. If the price is not as high, instead of only one buying it, perhaps 2, or 3 or all will buy it.
The 'industry' followed WOTCs example back in 3e with the charging standards. Just about everything I see at the stores is equally priced. Does it have to be? NO. What happens because of these great high prices? it is driving more and more people to go online resources. There have been times in the past where I have been so tempted to get products from amazon.com instead of going to my local store. Is that right? IMO, NO. I should be able to go to my local store and pick it up for slightly more. Not $10 or $15 more.
There is alot of decent material out there, but I just look at it and wonder if it really worth it. Take a look at the Draconomicon, what is the price on that? $45 or so? Again, it is all the principle that gets me.
I remember back when TSR changed out the Monstrous Compendiums with MM's. They actually had a rebate plan, if you had the receipt and proof of purchase you could recoup some of your investment. Did they do that with 3.5? NO.
I feel NO sympathy for those companies, that are willing to charge a person $30+ dollars for a product that will have typos, and other errors in them. You know what you get for most of those products the SAME thing: feats, skills, prestige classes. It is standard fair.
As it stands now, there NOT many leaders in the RPG world. WOTC has absorbed most of them, look at all the game titles they have now, Judge Dredd, Star Wars, and who knows whatelse. STEVE JACKSON, with his GURPS, and a few others, maybe. MONTE COOKs project, SCARRED LANDS. I am not really sure what other companies are really around anymore. I don't any PARANOIA, DC HEROES, ROBOTECH or any of those other games anymore . ICE is still around, but I have not seen that many of thier products. Years ago, if you went in a hobby store, you would see ALL those products, SHADOWRUN, RIFTS, PARAONIOA, MARVELL, DC, BATTLETECH, ROBOTECH, and a slew of other ones. Now? Now what do you see? WOTC products. With a very thin selection of other games, a few SCARRED LANDS, and MONTE COOKs ACANIA UNEARTHED, along with maybe a few d20 games, and that is it. As far as I am concerned, the 'golden age' of role playing games is over. It has been for a while now.

 

[philreed]

I'm sorry if the books are too expensive for you, I really am. I don't want to see this industry lose anyone. But you need to accept the fact that--unless someone finds a way to drastically expand the size of the market--prices aren't likely to go down anytime soon. The industry simply won't support it.

I think this is tied directly to the success of various PDF publishers and the future of the RPG industry. As the industry continues to shrink in size it will become more difficult for small publishers to remain competitive and force them to start using direct distribution methods -- like www.rpgnow.com for PDF and www.lulu.com for print.

As it is, many publishers are not making a living wage and are forced to treat publishing as a hobby. This affects the quality of material released, the quantity of material released, and the variety.

There was a donation drive here at ENWorld recently and the result was more income than many publishers -- PDF or otherwise -- see in a year of sales. I really wish publishers would stop hiding behind smoke and mirrors and share reality of publishing with the community.

 

[Pramas]

They {WotC} can't be treating their employees much better than everybody else, otherwise why would the wizard big-names always be leaving to start their own outfits?

As you would say, bull. WotC does, in fact, treat its employees better than anyone in the industry, at least in terms of wages and benefits. I worked there for four years. When I left, my salary as a Creative Director was just about triple what I pay myself now for Green Ronin. And I had really good benefits, including medical, dental, and a 401K program. Do you know what my insurance plan is now? I call it "don't get sick." And remember that Green Ronin is one of the most successful RPG companies in the game industry. Imagine how much worse it is for the average outfit.

As for why big-names leave, well, many of them were laid off. I was, as was Skip "the Sage" Williams, Owen K.C. Stephens, Jeff Grubb, and many more. Others have left for even better paying jobs in the computer game industry.

 

[BryonD]

Ya know, its is very much typical that we have both sides of the market claiming they are getting the short end.

Game products are not overpriced. People buy them of their own free will at current prices.

Game writers are not underpayed. People accept the current rates of their own free will.

Maybe there is cheaper product out their in other markets. If you want cheaper, go buy those products. But if you want gaming stuff, then you have to deal with the realities of the gamer market.

Same goes for writing. If you want to get paid the rates of some other market, then go write in that market. The gaming market is its own unique animal and other markets are not relevant.

There are certainly some publishers out there that I wouldn't hesitate to pay 20% more for. Green Ronin would be #1 on that list. But I am not the market. I'm a tiny drop in the bucket, no more, no less.

BTW, Phil, please don't think any of this is directed toward your initial comment. Simply pointing out that a giving product is worth more than you are willing to pay is in no way claiming the short end of the stick. I've taken your exact position on other products before.