I rarely complain about the price of an RPG product but . . .

[velm]

There has a been a good deal of product diversity though. We've had a lot of settings that are very different, some monster books that have really pushed the evelope, and some planes books that are highly creative.

As far product diversity goes, most of the gaming world gets their products or news of products from two sources. Source one is the local bookstore or gaming store, source two is the internet.
My hometown is a place called New Bedford, MA. do you want to know how many 'gaming' stores there are? NONE. The closest one is one town away in Dartmouth, not a long drive at all. Pretty short actually. I forgot what the name of it is, but it primarily specializes in warhammer items. It does have have a decent selection of other items, but MOST of those are WOTC products. Now, my hometown, is NOT in the boonies, it actually ranks pretty high in top twenty or so of world wide fishing communities, Moby Dick had this place mentioned in it.
What other choices are there for bookstores? waldens and the like. DND are, again, the VAST majority of items that they contain. Those items usually only take up a shelf or two.
Online, you can have a look see as to generally what is out there, but it is NOT the same as actually going thru the book at the store and having a feel for it. You can read reviews and get a summary of it, but everyone has their own opinions, even the reviewer, people might or might not agree with them.
Not everyone can go to GENCON or DRAGONCON. In my 16 years of playing, only ONCE have I been within a 100 mile radius of the place, and I had other commitments at the time so I was not able to make the trip. To say that there are lots of great games that show up at the various conventions is great. I envy anyone who goes. I would love to go there. But the general gaming community does NOT go. Let us say, that there are 10 million people in the US out there who role play, out of that 10 mill, what is the percentage that can go to the big cons to see what is going on? less than .5%? no, even less.
The gaming world lacks divirsity on a WHOLE. You have only a few small handful of groups that publish games. WOTC is the big leader. They set the stage. If they want to charge $30 for an item and other companies see that they can, what do you think they are going to do?
As far as quality goes, yes, some are good, some are decent, and some are piss poor. If I am going to pay $30+ dollars for something I do not expect to have typos and other errors in the book to have an errata pamphlet arrive not long after. This a QUALITY issue, if you bought a brand new car and the AC did not work and the radio did not work, would you just say 'it is not that bad'? I know I would not think that. We live in a digital age with spell checkers for one.
Quality of the product is another issue. I mentioned the DRACONOMICON, at a whopping list price of $45 or so. It might be greatest book since sliced bread, but how often are dragons used? Seriously, how often? I know I have RARELY ever run a dragon as a DM or seen one as a player. Dragons are the pinacle of PC challenges, they are amongst the strongest creatures in the game in just about every area. So, how often is that book going to be used? I look at other WOTC products and I think the same thing. Yes, the 'core' products are VERY good, and some of the other supplements are very good as well. Anyone remember GHOSTWALK? How was that? Was that a good product? I have no idea, I never laid down the cash for it. I have shelves of books at home that are sitting there. The only thing they can be used for is reference material the next time I might game. Do I like 3e? Yes, very much so. It is a great system, a very streamlined user friendly game. Do I think the 'core' books are worth $30 each? Because of quality and use, yes.
There are many products out there that I would like to get but am not going to because I feel they are overpriced and not sure of how much use they will see.
I realize, always have, that the gaming community does not have a high profit margin, but those prices rarely warrrent it. There are many items, that if they were $10 less, I think more people would either buy them who would not buy them, or buy them at the local bookstore instead of going thru amazon or another online retailer.
How often are alot of those supplements used? If a person has been playing for while, do you really think they are going to break out SONG AND SILENCE a heck of a lot? My personal favorite classes are the rogue and mage, yet I when I fanned thru that book, very little jumped out at me. If I did get it, I might only use it a handful of times.
Again, this is MY opinion on the prices, is it right? is it wrong? To me, it is right. It is also the principle that disturbs me.

edit part:
I have also read where alot of people stated that they get their items online, why is that? because it is cheaper than in the store where you pay what is on the book. All those people out there who say that they pay online are doing so to save money because it is too expensive. If the book was cheaper, to the point where shipping and handling would outweigh the cost you could pay at the store then odds are it would be bought at the store. So, price DOES matter.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Velm, don't quote numbers if you don't have access to actual statistics. Your numbers on how many people game, and how many make it to conventions are--from what I've heard from other industry folks--way off. How far off? I can't say, because I don't have numbers.

What I can tell you is that dropping the price by $10 on books just isn't feasible across the board. If a company is making 5-10% profit on The Great Book of Widgets as things stand, how do you expect them to drop 25-35% off the cover price and still make any money at all? They can't. They'll take a loss, and many of the smaller companies are one failed product away from bankruptcy. Yes, I'm being serious. Paper, warehousing, distribution, the cost of art, the cost of writing, the cost of editing, the cost of layout... None of these are cheap, even in an industry that pays less than others.

Could WotC do it? I don't know. Maybe. But nobody else could, and I'm not even sure WotC could.

This isn't opinion. These are cold, hard financial facts. Argue all you want, it doesn't change the facts, and facts are what people use to run a business.

 

[Ace]

I looked at the Star Wars minis guide yesterday at my FLGS

My imoression is about the same as Phil's -- just not a good value

Regarding the costs of other D20 books -- there are a lot of factors in play including market size, presence of distributors and more recently the US is undergoing a nasty bout of energy and currency related inflation ---

Anyone buying a game book can expect prices to continue up and the books to become more expensive relative to you wages. I won't go any farther with this as it violates the No Polotics rules but...

Fortunately you do have options

Legal Free Fan Content -- there is tons of this --

PDF content -- Phil has a lot of neat stuff as do a lot of other publishers. Most of the PDF's (not counting Drive Thru) are much less expensive than books and in terms of usefullness just as good

Using only what you buy -- I noticed an odd thing that many of the gaming groups I know use rather limited amounts of books --

#1 A Hack and Slash group -- it uses Hasbro and Mongoose and thats about it -- its pretty easy to keep up with that

#2 Only core and usually one other book for reference (in teh cuirrent campaign the Avalance Arabian Knights book and before that Swashbuckling Adventures)

or you can use my handy RPG value calculator for non collectors It rates this way

Use for a long time in many campaigns BEST

Use in a campign GOOD

Get Tidits of use FAIR

Read and Enjoy Multiple Times GOOD

Read and Enjoy once FAIR

Read once but find it mediocre POOR

Find Useless and poorly written POOR


Factor this by available income/cost ratio and you are good to go

 

[Ace]

Velm, don't quote numbers if you don't have access to actual statistics. Your numbers on how many people game, and how many make it to conventions are--from what I've heard from other industry folks--way off. How far off? I can't say, because I don't have numbers.

What I can tell you is that dropping the price by $10 on books just isn't feasible across the board. If a company is making 5-10% profit on The Great Book of Widgets as things stand, how do you expect them to drop 25-35% off the cover price and still make any money at all? They can't. They'll take a loss, and many of the smaller companies are one failed product away from bankruptcy. Yes, I'm being serious. Paper, warehousing, distribution, the cost of art, the cost of writing, the cost of editing, the cost of layout... None of these are cheap, even in an industry that pays less than others.

Could WotC do it? I don't know. Maybe. But nobody else could, and I'm not even sure WotC could.

This isn't opinion. These are cold, hard financial facts. Argue all you want, it doesn't change the facts, and facts are what people use to run a business.

I agree with you here. There are only 3 ways for game publishers to make more money

Reduce costs -- not possible in the current market -- and moving purely to a PDF format can gut your sales numbers. Of course it might be more profitable even with reduced sales - I dunno

Get rid of middlemen -- If the distributors could be removed a good amount of income (almost 1/4 the cover actually) could be garnered -- I just don't know how to do this though. Distributors are very entwined with the game business. An example a minor difficulty with a company I won't name (a sizeable one though) means my FLGS distribitor means that the store will only carry that companies product in special order and that they don't guarantee a timely order

Increase sales numbers -- I have no idea how to do this though. If I did I would team up with Monte Cook, Phil Read and a bunch of the other guys here and sell sell sell -- till i cold afford a nice Orange County estate or something

 

[velm]

Velm, don't quote numbers if you don't have access to actual statistics. Your numbers on how many people game, and how many make it to conventions are--from what I've heard from other industry folks--way off. How far off? I can't say, because I don't have numbers.

What I can tell you is that dropping the price by $10 on books just isn't feasible across the board. If a company is making 5-10% profit on The Great Book of Widgets as things stand, how do you expect them to drop 25-35% off the cover price and still make any money at all? They can't. They'll take a loss, and many of the smaller companies are one failed product away from bankruptcy. Yes, I'm being serious. Paper, warehousing, distribution, the cost of art, the cost of writing, the cost of editing, the cost of layout... None of these are cheap, even in an industry that pays less than others.

Could WotC do it? I don't know. Maybe. But nobody else could, and I'm not even sure WotC could.

This isn't opinion. These are cold, hard financial facts. Argue all you want, it doesn't change the facts, and facts are what people use to run a business.

First off, I NEVER quoted a number, it was an offhand estimate. It was NEVER meant to be taken as a 'quote.' I used it to try to say that a small portion of the gaming people actually go to those conventions. Not everyone can go and see those items you were talking about that is the point I am making. I am sure if i really wanted to, i could find some estimate somewhere from some source on the web, as to a rough number of people who game to those who go to conventions.
Now, I am not in a company who deals with those items. But, I can tell you now, that I am sure that things are done in bulk, and there are discounts for bulk. It still does not change the fact that they are STILL losing customers as I have said before. They lower the price more people will pick it up, so in the long run, they really will not be in a position of loss. So, they want to keep prices high for overhead, then how do the online retailers have a such a good market then? People would rather get them online than pay that full cost price. So they are NOT making money.
Like I said, it is MY OPINION. It is not going to change. I am NOT the only one who feels this way, so trying to single me out is not going to do ANY good.
Are there ways around paying the price on the book? yep, like someone else said, PDF, online distibution. getting only core products, and so on.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Now, I am not in a company who deals with those items. But, I can tell you now, that I am sure that things are done in bulk, and there are discounts for bulk. It still does not change the fact that they are STILL losing customers as I have said before. They lower the price more people will pick it up, so in the long run, they really will not be in a position of loss.

There are several problems with this assessment, though.

First, yes, companies deal in bulk. All the costs I've discussed above take that into account. Most RPG companies have to very carefully toe the line, though. The more you order at once, the better your bulk discount, but if you over-order, you wind up with product that doesn't sell. The only reason many companies can do business at all is that they order in bulk, and they're still barely making it.

Second, market research has shown, time and again, that lowering book costs enough to drastically increase sales is impossible without lowering the costs so much that the books can't make money no matter how many copies sell. As Ace said, the only to do it is to actually cut out an entire step of the process, and at the moment, that's simply not feasible. So your theory about "More people will buy if the prices go down," while sound on the surface, simply doesn't hold up in practice. The numbers don't match.

So, they want to keep prices high for overhead, then how do the online retailers have a such a good market then? People would rather get them online than pay that full cost price. So they are NOT making money.

Online retailers don't have the costs of a brick-and-mortar store, so they can afford to earn less profit. But you know something? They aren't doing that well. Amazon has been in the red almost since the day they started.

But you're talking about end-user cost here, not the monies received by the publisher. If I'm not mistaken, WotC (or White Wolf, or whoever) gets about the same dollar amount per book sold on Amazon that they do from Barnes & Noble. It's the retailer who eats the difference.

In other words, people going to Amazon instead of their local FLGS are hurting the FLGS, but they're not hurting the RPG companies. (At least not directly. An argument could be made that RPG expansion requires the survival of the FLGS, but that's a discussion for another thread.)

Like I said, it is MY OPINION. It is not going to change. I am NOT the only one who feels this way, so trying to single me out is not going to do ANY good.
Are there ways around paying the price on the book? yep, like someone else said, PDF, online distibution. getting only core products, and so on.

Keep your opinion all you like. I'm not telling you that you can't. I'm just letting you know that it's based on factually incorrect premises. Nor did I argue that it was impossible to get around paying full price. Of course there are ways around it. What I said is that it's impossible, in the current market, for the RPG companies themselves to lower the price from their end.

 

[Crothian]

As far product diversity goes, most of the gaming world gets their products or news of products from two sources. Source one is the local bookstore or gaming store, source two is the internet.

Okay, so you don't have a good place to buy gaming books. I think that's what the short summary of the first few paragraphs were. Also, could you please place a blank line in your posts? They can be hard to read especially for long posts.

The gaming world lacks divirsity on a WHOLE. You have only a few small handful of groups that publish games. WOTC is the big leader. They set the stage. If they want to charge $30 for an item and other companies see that they can, what do you think they are going to do?

So, how many gaming companies are there exactly and how many are needed for diversity? Also, in a competitive market if companies could charge less to sell more and still make a profit they would. Unless its a conspiracy that all the companies have banned togother to keep prices high.

As far as quality goes, yes, some are good, some are decent, and some are piss poor. If I am going to pay $30+ dollars for something I do not expect to have typos and other errors in the book to have an errata pamphlet arrive not long after. This a QUALITY issue, if you bought a brand new car and the AC did not work and the radio did not work, would you just say 'it is not that bad'? I know I would not think that. We live in a digital age with spell checkers for one.

Creating a car and a book are different enough that they really should not be compaired. With the car you also get a warrenty, books don't have those. Books, all books will have errors. Medical books, text books, fiction, dictionariers, the errors are not unique to the RPG Industry. Sure, some books are riddled with errors, but in my experience most have an acceptible number of errors. No book will be perfect so I never expect them to be.

Quality of the product is another issue. I mentioned the DRACONOMICON, at a whopping list price of $45 or so. It might be greatest book since sliced bread, but how often are dragons used? Seriously, how often? I know I have RARELY ever run a dragon as a DM or seen one as a player. Dragons are the pinacle of PC challenges, they are amongst the strongest creatures in the game in just about every area. So, how often is that book going to be used? I look at other WOTC products and I think the same thing. Yes, the 'core' products are VERY good, and some of the other supplements are very good as well. Anyone remember GHOSTWALK? How was that? Was that a good product? I have no idea, I never laid down the cash for it. I have shelves of books at home that are sitting there. The only thing they can be used for is reference material the next time I might game. Do I like 3e? Yes, very much so. It is a great system, a very streamlined user friendly game. Do I think the 'core' books are worth $30 each? Because of quality and use, yes.
There are many products out there that I would like to get but am not going to because I feel they are overpriced and not sure of how much use they will see.

You said you've been gaming for 16 years. I'm sure you've gotten years of use out of some books. That's the great thing about books. Sure, this campaign might not feature many dragons. But in ten years I might run a dragon intenisve world where dragons rule and the players are rebeling and fighting against them all the time. Also, Dragons have CRs from low to high so they can be used as often as the DM wants to. The bottom line is the book will get used as often as you want to use it. If the book is sititng unused on the self, don't automatically blame the book.

I realize, always have, that the gaming community does not have a high profit margin, but those prices rarely warrrent it. There are many items, that if they were $10 less, I think more people would either buy them who would not buy them, or buy them at the local bookstore instead of going thru amazon or another online retailer.

Ten dollars less and most of the companies will be out of business. I don't think there is a single industry that can cut prices by 33% and expect to survive.

How often are alot of those supplements used? If a person has been playing for while, do you really think they are going to break out SONG AND SILENCE a heck of a lot? My personal favorite classes are the rogue and mage, yet I when I fanned thru that book, very little jumped out at me. If I did get it, I might only use it a handful of times.
Again, this is MY opinion on the prices, is it right? is it wrong? To me, it is right. It is also the principle that disturbs me.

Again, only you can determine how often a suppliment will be used. A rogue taking a ten level prestige class from Song And Silence will be using the book for a year or so as they gain levels in the class. If you aren't going to use, then don't buy it. There are many other books out there you might enjoy.

You are right, it is your opinion. Others have other opinions. So, we post them and discuss them and make our points.

edit part:
I have also read where alot of people stated that they get their items online, why is that? because it is cheaper than in the store where you pay what is on the book. All those people out there who say that they pay online are doing so to save money because it is too expensive. If the book was cheaper, to the point where shipping and handling would outweigh the cost you could pay at the store then odds are it would be bought at the store. So, price DOES matter.

Well, I'd have to say that no matter what the prices are, as long as they are cheaper on line; people will buy the cheaper ones.

 

[velm]

Keep your opinion all you like. I'm not telling you that you can't. I'm just letting you know that it's based on factually incorrect premises. Nor did I argue that it was impossible to get around paying full price. Of course there are ways around it. What I said is that it's impossible, in the current market, for the RPG companies themselves to lower the price from their end.

I do not think it is factually incorrect. It is a variety of factors, that I stated much earlier. Price is a big one, use is a big one, and quality is a big one. They all play a major role. If the price is $30 and the quality is up there, then it might a good deal.
So far, mainly the cost of the product has been argued, indeed it should. But there are also other considerations to take into account. IS THE PRODUCT WORTH THE PRICE?
However, I still do feel it is justified charging such high prices for some of the items out there. I have seen a HACKMASTER monster manual for monsters A-E or whatever, for about $20, it was softbound. I do not play hackmaster, but $20 for an incredibly thin book? Sorry, I know I am NOT the only one who feels this way. My brother-in-law is an avid HACKMASTER player and they are not touching anything new because of the prices.
You give me quality, I will buy it. As an example, I have bought GHOST RECON 3 times so far. I feel the game is just that high quality. But, my quality standard usually only goes so high, so I have to mix in the other factors as well.

 

[philreed]

Second, market research has shown, time and again, that lowering book costs enough to drastically increase sales is impossible without lowering the costs so much that the books can't make money no matter how many copies sell.

And, as a demonstration of why lowering costs drastically has no real impact on revenue, I'll step up to the plate.

Using the following link will let you buy my "101 Collection" for $1. That's over 100 pages of material. This expires in a few days.

http://www.rpgnow.com/?coupon=55726

I predict that fewer than 5 copies of this product will be purchased using this coupon. Granted, this is a very limited experiment since only people that see this thread will know of it. I'll be sure to post the number of people that used this coupon so that everyone has the data.

If there were some proof that such a drastically low price would greatly increase sales I would price all of my PDFs extremely low. To show numbers, this product has been brought me $1,773 after 324 sales. That means that I'd need to sell over 6x the number at $1 to make the low price worthwhile. I just don't think that many people would buy it even at $1.

 

[velm]

And, as a demonstration of why lowering costs drastically has no real impact on revenue, I'll step up to the plate.

Using the following link will let you buy my "101 Collection" for $1. That's over 100 pages of material. This expires in a few days.

http://www.rpgnow.com/?coupon=55726

I predict that fewer than 5 copies of this product will be purchased using this coupon. Granted, this is a very limited experiment since only people that see this thread will know of it. I'll be sure to post the number of people that used this coupon so that everyone has the data.

If there were some proof that such a drastically low price would greatly increase sales I would price all of my PDFs extremely low. To show numbers, this product has been brought me $1,773 after 324 sales. That means that I'd need to sell over 6x the number at $1 to make the low price worthwhile. I just don't think that many people would buy it even at $1.

It also has to do with product as well. Is it a good product? (btw, i am not saying it is good or is not ) It might be a steal at a dollar, but if it not a good product, well. Word of mouth goes a long long way also. (I almost did get it, but i am sure you would need a credit card, I am work and no credit card. This is one of those things of if no one knows it is there... )