I still don't understand Controllers

[Kinneus]

Controllers get a bad rap because some other classes have a few controller type powers that step on Controllers toes.

But the Controller can step on toes too, such as a striker's, if he catches a bunch of mobs in an area spell, or one of his zones is used to repeatedly damage a creature via forced movement. It adds up.

This. Both are quite true. Controllers were initially designed, I think, as the role that attacks multiple foes. The problem is, every class eventually gets access to these abilities. Status effects don't match up, either, especially with Rogues dazing and blinding everybody and Wardens slowing and knocking prone like nobody's business.

People see this and think: "Oh, Controllers are unnecessary, because if we really need to slow/daze/immobilize an enemy, or attack multiple enemies, somebody else in the party is bound to have at least one power capable of that." The thing is, multi-target damage and status effects are only components of the Controller class. The most important aspect of the class is their ability to, well, control. To literally re-shape the battlefield, whether that's due to plunking a wall or dangerous zone down in the middle of it, creating a zone of concealment, or by pushing or sliding foes around like crazy.

Also, Controllers do scary damage in certain situations... just not all against one target (which, admittedly, is usually weaker, since strategically you want to focus fire and drop a foe as quick as possible). But I recently saw a level 9 Covenant of Wrath Invoker do something like 150 damage in a single turn... while also dazing, pushing and blinding everything in the blast. It was freaking scary.

It took WotC a bit to get the 'Controller' role right, I'll give you that. The Wizard was definitely ailing for a while. But it has hit its stride now, and it is really a thing of beauty. Not necessary for a successful party (no role technically is), but if you see a good one in action, you can appreciate it for what it really is.

 

[Plane Sailing]

As leatherhead mentioned, in the PHB1 all the other classes had class features which defined their ability in their 'role' (marking/combat superiority etc/healing word/inspiring word/bonus damage). Wizards were lacking in this, suggesting that the designers hadn't really settled on the best way of handling a defining feature for the controllers at that point in time (I seem to recall mearls saying as much somewhere too).

It might be worth looking at PHB2 controllers (invoker and druid) to see if they have any class features which define their controller-y-ness. I can't remember off-hand if they have any.

 

[mach1.9pants]

As leatherhead mentioned, in the PHB1 all the other classes had class features which defined their ability in their 'role' (marking/combat superiority etc/healing word/inspiring word/bonus damage). Wizards were lacking in this, suggesting that the designers hadn't really settled on the best way of handling a defining feature for the controllers at that point in time (I seem to recall mearls saying as much somewhere too).

The Rouse mentioned the same thing on these boards IIRC.
It doesn't help that the party Wiz player in my group tries to play him like a mas-striker, choosing all damage powers that he can.. and being out damaged by the ranger. I am trying to convince him to either change his powers or swap to sorcerer...

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'm playing a wizard in a game at the moment (currently 7th level) and one of the things I notice is that the encounters where I get out one of my sustainable dailies, it really defines the encounter.

Wizard encounter powers don't seem that great so far, but the sustainable dailies can be very powerful, allowing you to force enemies to waste actions moving to avoid damage, continuing to do damage as a minor action while getting your other attacks off and stuff.

Not entirely helpful to your original question, but I thought it might be worth sharing!

Cheers

 

[mach1.9pants]

I think the Wiz player in my campaign would cry if he couldn't do fireball.....but (as you said) stinking cloud is so much better!
EDIT: even fireburst is the same without the miss effect as an encounter..maybe he'll come around

 

[dbm]

I'm playing a wizard in a game at the moment (currently 7th level) and one of the things I notice is that the encounters where I get out one of my sustainable dailies, it really defines the encounter.

This is the essence of the controller to me. I played a level 10 wizard in a mini-campaign recently and carefully selected daily powers which either lasted the encounter (Ice Storm) or could be sustained (Flaming Sphere, Stinking Cloud). In most encounters I would deploy one of these effects and re-write the battle field.

Controllers are all about their Daylies, where as, in my experience, it is the Encounter powers which define most other roles.

Cheers,
Dan

 

[Spungdeeper]

This is the essence of the controller to me. I played a level 10 wizard in a mini-campaign recently and carefully selected daily powers which either lasted the encounter (Ice Storm) or could be sustained (Flaming Sphere, Stinking Cloud). In most encounters I would deploy one of these effects and re-write the battle field.

Controllers are all about their Daylies, where as, in my experience, it is the Encounter powers which define most other roles.

Cheers,
Dan

Let me give an exampe of this. The 8th lvl wizard in my campaign loves stinking cloud along with grasping shadows and phantom chasm. In a recent fight with the BBEG and his lackeys (Foulspawn Seer, 2 Grue and 2 Berserkers, Angel of Valor) He and the Invoker corralled everyone but the angel and the Seer into grasping shadows and stinking cloud. Whenever a monster would almost leave the wiz either thunderwaved them in or use phantom bolt to slide them back in. As a DM I often want to beat him over the head. (True sign of a controller)

Another example. Same player different campaign, 2nd level wizard. (I was a pc in this one). Fighting a bunch of kobolds after a beach landing sandy loam with bushes, uphill difficult terrain. We slaughter the kobolds, DM rolls out an damn hill giant. Wiz----> Phantom Chasm, knock prone and immobilizes (this is gnarly) The party surrounds and unloads dailies. He dies in two rounds. If we hadn't had a wizard we'd there is no way we could've handled a lvl 13 monster. Like 3rd dumb damage doesn't rule when it comes to controller powers.

Controller=hinder

 

[Goumindong]

Controllers are about action limitation and battlefield definition.

There is some overlap with others in the action limitation side, but certainly not in the battlefield definition side. As well, controllers, when played smartly have the strongest ability to make use of their action limitation.

Probably the most important thing a wizard does is prevent melee enemies from entering melee for a round or two. Allowing your ranged strikers more time before someone gets next to them, or allowing your fighter to deal with a single melee enemy instead of a bunch.

Consider the following scenarior
M=melee enemy
R=Ranged enemy
F=fighter
W=Wizard
O=Rogue

.R.R..
..M.M.
......
......
..F...
..OW..

If the wizard goes first, he can ready an action to drop a icy terrain as soon as one of the two melee enemies moves. As soon as once does, its knocked prone and in the middle of difficult terrain. This ends its movement and if it wants to close the next tun, it now has to spend an action getting up. To top this off, the wizard has done some damage.

Now the second enemy comes in and melees the fighter, the fighter can step around him, [with a readied action or normal action depending on his initiative, say with footwork lure] which sets up an easy flank with the rogue. If the wizard had not been there the other enemy would be there to flank with the fighter a round early, and would be doing damage himself.

O.K. lets say this happens and now the battlefield looks like this

.R.R..
......
...M..
.F....
.M....
.O.W..

The wizard can now daze the top most monster M and shift behind the rogue[or shift behind and ready another action to daze the top most monster M when it gets within range].

If it hits, the monster M can only charge the rogue or wizard. He can't engage the fighter since he has only one action and is too close to charge. This either forces the enemy group to focus fire on the rogue [through cover of the fighter] and provoke the CC from the fighter, or give up attacks.

All in all, the wizard has prevented one to two rounds of attacks from an enemy, made it so that the attacks of the enemy cannot be efficiently applied, made it easier for his fighter to flank with the rogue and done some extra damage to boot.

As well there are other tricks you can play. Lets say you daze or slow an enemy so that the only way it can get to your fighter is by charging. Well, if that is the case, the fighter can ready an action[say, footwork lure again], against the charging enemy entering a square adjacent to him. He shifts and pulls the enemy to a new square. Since the enemy has ended his charge in a square that is not the closest square to his original position his charge is invalid and he loses his attack. This of course doesn't work if you don't know the enemy is charging.

 

[webrunner]

Where controllers shine is area effect

Not area of effect, say, a standard "area burst X within Y" damage power, but actually effecting the area.

Sustainable zones, walls, and conjurations (particularly occupying conjurations) create entire parts of the battlefield which the enemies wont want to be.. Flaming Sphere does a lot of damage, but it's main purpose is that a bad guy isn't going to get adjacent to a flaming sphere if he doesn't want to be.

In many ways, it makes them an anti-defender, as well: Defenders create areas that the enemy wants to be: namely, around the defender. Controllers create areas that the enemy doesn't want to be.

To put it another way: Most of the roles try to use the terrain to the advantage. Controllers say 'screw that' and make their own.

 

[KarinsDad]

It doesn't help that the party Wiz player in my group tries to play him like a mas-striker, choosing all damage powers that he can.. and being out damaged by the ranger. I am trying to convince him to either change his powers or swap to sorcerer...

Why?

If there is a problem here, it is a game design problem, not a player choice problem.

A player should be able to choose any legal powers he wants and not be ostracized for his choices.

Seems more like a problem for you than him. The game is either balanced for those choices, or it is not. If not, it's a game design bug.