This entire tangent is meaningless and I just have no interest in engaging with it. It is just not addressing anything we are talkinga bout.
okay
I'll point out that Britain changed leadership because of this, but it's an accurate comparison: taking a liar at their word and giving up because it's not you getting hurt.
I just have no interest in engaging with this as I told you I will not compare this game and it's issues with license's to the atrocities of any war let alone that one.
We all agreed to stand up now and we largely have agreed to continue standing up, and yet here you and others are, telling us that we should just accept this (a terrible deal) and make sure to fight hard if they do it again..
this is partially true. My thoughts right now are to hammer out a compromise and then stand down BUT keep our guard up. I respect if you wish to fight for more, but so far nothing has convinced me to make that big of a leap.
again I have changed my view before, and may again, but right now I am presenting as they are now.
You have no cache to make such a proposal.
I have the same standing you do. We both are people on enworld talking about how far we wish to push this.
You are the one who is giving up first. Why would I trust your ability to actually step up and push back when you have immediately given up and are actively defending perhaps the worst aspect of the whole deal? Your words here have little weight because they don't reflect your current actions. Talking about how "we" can do this again misses that you aren't part of the we, you are the one who is actively trying to deal when many of us are standing firm.
I HAVE been part of the WE all week. I (and others) are just drawing our lines somewhere different then you... and we are seeing where Wotc landed and saying "close... maybe a few more steps"
And this is a good reason as to why people really don't take your whole "We can stop them if this happens again": you've changed your position multiple times.
wait... keeping an open mind, taking in new facts and arguments and evaluating them to adjust your stance is bad?
When did that happen?
You are far from teh first to say so, but I do wonder, does that mean no matter what facts or arguments are made you will NEVER change your opinion? You NEVER leave open the possibility you may be wrong?
And I think, having read most of the conversations on here and elsewhere, that you'd probably be very wrong. We might have some different lines, but I think there would be some that are pretty common.
- No touching 1.0a unless it is to make it completely irrevocable
- No morality clause that allows them to unilaterally destroy someone's content
- A redoing of their VTT policy to not be harmful to other VTTs in the business.
I think you are mistaking what you are saying for what EVERYONE is saying. I see several people care about 1 or 2 of those and not all of them and I have seen people that care about NON of them. I have also seen people that say all of that isn't enough.
Outside of yourself and a few others, these seem to be pretty popular and universal lines.
then it shouldn't matter what I say or do... like the BoEf and EtR if I am in the minority, then no matter what I do or say my way one come to be.
They just aren't your lines. I would recognize the reality of the situation if I were you and realize that your position is the minority/fringe one, and that the vast majority seem to have a pretty consistent goal.
becareful assuming you are the majority (something I have repeatedly said I don't know if I am)
Yeah, and that's why people don't want to listen to you. You're not consistent, you change your mind all the time. Saying that "Oh, we'll stand up next time!" is not reassuring when it's the guy who has changed his opinions multiple times and landed on "I, for one, welcome our new OGL 1.2 overlords!"
I weep at the thought that the majority (as you claim) dislike hearing someone who is willing to listen and change based on new evidence and arguments...
I mean, when you flipflop on things that is a risk you take. It really depends on what and how you change your mind. I would say that the way you have done it, you have limited how many people take your opinion seriously. That's the nicest way I can put it.
1 that isn't even CLOSE to the nicest way you can put it... but hey you want to be rude I get it, your angry and 100% sure you are right and nothing can change your mind... a dangerous combination
2 what part of "how" I changed my mind? Was it when I took everything the lawayer said and modified my thoughts on the legalities, was it when I ran the % numbers myself and showed that the royalties could sink people. Was it when I pushed to have the MOST effect on D&D WotC and Hsbro by pushing other systems? Was it when I bought 2 starter boxes for a game I don't play don't plan on playing and don't even really like to donate to a school and a library to support the company and the people in it even if I speak out against that company (Piazo for the record)
Maybe it was when I wrote suggestions to 3pp and how I would handle it form a $$ point of view, and when they went another way i said "Okay, not what I would do but good on you for standing for what you believe in"?
Maybe it was when I was reminded that the statement about them doing stuff was helping them sell more (including me who bought and donated things) that I punted out even on there side they were still infact trying to make money...
Maybe it was when I said no one had brought a real example of the harm that could be done with 'orphan content' and I was proven wrong twice and admited I was wrong and added those examples to what I will give for feed back?
No I think it is just when I said "Okay, I fought for the thinks I care about and it looks like they mostly listened, now I want to drill down on making this new license better instead of fighting for the old one"
that feel like your general answer to be honest...
That is
incredibly sad. I don't even know how you admit to that.
pretty simply... we all have our own goals and our own lines in the sand.
This entire hypothetical is unnecessarily complex because we can literally just refer to the reality we are in and the situation currently at hand.
I have tried... but as you said, you see no upside to listening to other's thoughts and facts and rethinking your positions... so I understand why you don't like it.
We keep doing this and you keep getting into long, weird tangents instead of actually addressing what we are talking about.
I am trying to show you that it is possible for 2 good honest people to see this differently
The long and short is this: we are standing up because the deal right now is no deal, and that anything we currently gain (which is very little) can simply be taken away.
i disagree
But more seriously, this is exactly it. We haven't won anything. WotC is still trying to play games and thankfully it looks like vast majority of the community is not falling for it. We need to continue on, comment and engage, but be aware that Wizbro will almost certainly try to hard-sell 1.2 after the "playtest".
I again must remind myself you see no virtue in rethinking from others points of view, and you have to assume you are not only 100% correct but that nothing can change that...