I think TSR was right to publish so much material

[Greg K]

echohawks graph is the awesome, and makes the point...

But since I have went to this trouble, here is a sample. This is most everything for D&D between 88-98, but its not everything, and 'cause of the way I did it, there is some other random stuff in there. (It also has two bits, each roughly chronological).

Its over 600 items and 12 pages or so long.

Yeah, looking at the list, it is definitely not all D&D, but I would not call some of it other random stuff. On first glance, I see other rpgs (and their supplements) including:

Amazing Engine
Alternity
Marvel Super Heroes Adventure Game
Dragonlance SAGA

 

[Celebrim]

For me, the important thing to do is to look at something like the 1995 release schedule, go over it, and then release that there is literally one thing for that whole year that should have gone to the publisher.

Most of the material is forgettable and not done to a sufficiently high level of quality. But more importantly, none of those books had a high demand associated with it. The best thing that they put out that year was Birthright, which was done to a very high quality, but represented a huge risk because it was yet another setting and didn't sufficiently distinguish itself from prior settings enough to make it worth publishing even if they weren't already supporting a dozen or so settings. If you trim out the crap that wasn't going to sell, what you realize is that they were banking the entire year more or less on the acceptance of an additional setting.

Honestly, if I was the brand manager looking at that list, I would have been tempted to scrap the whole year and looked to see if we had anything at all that was making money that we could possibly do another print run of or simply just let it ride, because its utterly clear to me as a gamer that you'd make more money not printing any of that stuff than printing it. It's conceivable that a couple of the setting support books could have made money with very small print runs, but really, are you going to find 50k buyers for "Planes of Law" or "The Gothic Earth Gazetteer"? Maybe, but only if those settings are selling strongly (which they probably weren't) and your player base isn't so swamped with choices that there buying power gets too spread out.

That one thing that should have been released: Night Below. The entire focus of the year should have been on making that cool and desirable. A tenth of the schedule that they did print would have made as much or more money.

 

[Banshee16]

TSR tried to support several self-isolating settings in the same intensity, instead of focusing on accessories that could be used with any setting and only a few setting-specific supplements. For isntance, a "core D&D" desert monster supplement could've been used with FR, Al-Qadin, Dark Sun or Greyhawk.

I'm not convinced. A core D&D desert monster supplement could have *some* creatures usable with all of those settings.

But some of those settings (particularly Al-Qadim and Dark Sun) had very specific feels to them, and the monsters couldn't easily be made to fit between the two.

Could you imagine a silt runner, mul, gaj, kaisharga, or some other similar creature from Dark Sun going into Al-Qadim? Yeah, they're both desert settings, but they're very, very different.

Or, how about taking a tasked genie, simurge, silat, or one of those mermaid creatures (begins with a P) going into Dark Sun? Heck, they don't even *have* a sea.

Sometimes it's detrimental to try to fit everything into everything else.

Banshee

 

[Klaus]

I'm not convinced. A core D&D desert monster supplement could have *some* creatures usable with all of those settings.

But some of those settings (particularly Al-Qadim and Dark Sun) had very specific feels to them, and the monsters couldn't easily be made to fit between the two.

Could you imagine a silt runner, mul, gaj, kaisharga, or some other similar creature from Dark Sun going into Al-Qadim? Yeah, they're both desert settings, but they're very, very different.

Or, how about taking a tasked genie, simurge, silat, or one of those mermaid creatures (begins with a P) going into Dark Sun? Heck, they don't even *have* a sea.

Sometimes it's detrimental to try to fit everything into everything else.

Banshee

The archetypal Dark Sun race, the thri-kreen, first appeared in the Forgotten Realms MC Appendix.

Could you fit every DS or AQ monster in there? No, of course not. And maybe AQ should be rolled together with Kara-Tur for a "real world" monster book.

But most of you could find in Dark Sun would fit right in the Anauroch (FR) or the Sea of Dust (GH). The Dark Sun Campaign Setting itself lists creatures from other MC appendixes that could be used in Athas! Also, the city states of the Tyr region already mimicked several real-world cultures. I could easily see a tasked genie or some other Al-Qadim creature going about.

So instead of catering competing products to each specific setting, roll together similar premises and you'll increase your consumer base.

 

[rogueattorney]

The archetypal Dark Sun race, the thri-kreen, first appeared in the Forgotten Realms MC Appendix.

Actually, they're about a decade older than that. The Thri-Keen were one of about half a dozen new monsters introduced in the four sets of D&D Monster Cards in 1982. They and the other new monsters were then included in the Monster Manual II in 1983.

 

[Philosopher]

So instead of catering competing products to each specific setting, roll together similar premises and you'll increase your consumer base.

That's an example of something that I think would be a great idea from the point of view of a business. As a person who likes trying out different settings with different flavours, however, I'd be disappointed in this. The settings would have less to differentiate them.

 

[hafrogman]

1992 releases
1992 Trading Cards Factory Set (750 cards)

Still have this one. I loved those cards

I imagine for every item on the list you can find some people who'll fight to defend the validity of publishing it. But in the end, the sales just didn't justify the production, printing and shipping costs. And that's how you know it wasn't "right" to do so. Without the out-of-nowhere success of M:tG in those years, WotC would never have been in a position to buy D&D, and who knows where or in what shape it would have ended up.

 

[the Jester]

Still, even if tpeple by one setting and stick to it, had TSR controlled their print runs better, I don't see why that should be a problem? You have a smaller initial print runs and base supplements and print runs on the sales numbers for each setting while putting out some general material as well.

First of all, I wasn't speaking specifically about settings so much as the glut of crap products in general. But, since you brought it up-

Because it costs just as much money to produce a quality setting product even if only 1/2 or 1/3 or 1/10 of your customer base buys it.

Basically, in any kind of production business (including printing and bookmaking), there is an economy of scale. You want to print one copy of a book, it might run you $75. You want to print 100 copies, they might each run you $20. You want to print 10,000 copies, and you might pay $3 each. And I'm not talking about the cost of developing, playtesting or anything other than the printing and binding.

If it costs $25000 to develop a setting product (I made that number up, I have no idea but I'd bet my guess is way on the low end) and you have to pay $20 each to produce them and you sell them for $40, you need to sell 1250 copies to break even on development and printing costs. If you are producing four settings, you need to sell 1250 each to break even on each one. If one flops... that's $25K (or whatever) down the tubes.

Then look at stuff like shipping to stores, overhead of the office, etc....

All that said, how many people bought Council of Wyrms? Jakandor? The Rome supplement? How many products did TSR produce that it had to 'make up' for the cost of creating with other products, especially during the years when they kept churning out crappier and crappier stuff and product after product aimed squarely at a subset of a subset of an already-small customer base?

"If you play Forgotten Realms in this ONE TINY CORNER, you MUST HAVE this product!"

Great, except that product cost money to produce outside of all proportion to the income it generated. And of the 150 guys playing in that one tiny corner of the world, only 30 are going to buy it.

 

[Erik Mona]

Honestly, if I was the brand manager looking at that list, I would have been tempted to scrap the whole year and looked to see if we had anything at all that was making money that we could possibly do another print run of or simply just let it ride, because its utterly clear to me as a gamer that you'd make more money not printing any of that stuff than printing it. It's conceivable that a couple of the setting support books could have made money with very small print runs, but really, are you going to find 50k buyers for "Planes of Law" or "The Gothic Earth Gazetteer"? Maybe, but only if those settings are selling strongly (which they probably weren't) and your player base isn't so swamped with choices that there buying power gets too spread out.

It's interesting that you single out the Gothic Earth Gazetteer. In my first year on the staff of the RPGA (1999), we put together prize support boxes filled with unsellable "dead" product from the later part of the period dicussed in this thread. There were lots of those slim Al Qadim boxed sets, a WHOLE LOT of Elminster's Ecologies 2, and box after box after box of the Gothic Earth Gazetteer.

The room that all this stuff was in could have fit a giant family van with enough room left over for a Volkswagon Bug. And it was filled wall to wall with product that was good only for giving away.

When we finished packing up box after box after box of convention support, the leftovers (thousands of products) were simply thrown away.

--Erik

 

[Klaus]

It's interesting that you single out the Gothic Earth Gazetteer. In my first year on the staff of the RPGA (1999), we put together prize support boxes filled with unsellable "dead" product from the later part of the period dicussed in this thread. There were lots of those slim Al Qadim boxed sets, a WHOLE LOT of Elminster's Ecologies 2, and box after box after box of the Gothic Earth Gazetteer.

The room that all this stuff was in could have fit a giant family van with enough room left over for a Volkswagon Bug. And it was filled wall to wall with product that was good only for giving away.

When we finished packing up box after box after box of convention support, the leftovers (thousands of products) were simply thrown away.

--Erik

Heresy, I say!

<--- Proud owner of the Gothic Earth Gazeteer (and A Guide to Transylvania)