I want my actions to matter

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Except a lot of classes only got 2 skill points per level (and frequently the ones that wouldn't gain bonuses from a high Int). Standard DC for climbing a wall is 20, a rock cliff 25, with armour check penalties and the I don't think it was as fine as you make out. For Escape Artist, Manacles or even a tight space were DC 30.

If you wanted to know about Monsters you needed all those knowledge skills, and at pretty high ranks if you wanted more than the very basic information about them.

Every player I gamed with during 3E constantly complained about not having enough skill points, even the a rogues who were getting 8 a level. So not sure it worked out fine.
This is simply untrue. The DC table didn't work that way. Knocking out the easy part, the word wall does not exist on the table & neither of the two climb entries are DC20. None of the dc30 entroes align with your examples either The whole table had four columns. Those columns were DC, example, roll(key ability), and most importantly "who could do it". This post has the list itself in a spoiler.
 

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What exactly is a D&D expert?
Well, much like an expert in other things: someone with deep knowledge about the game, it's rules, it's history and such.
And why is such a thing even important?
Real life experience is important in social activities like games.
Everyone is there to play a game (I'll get tired of this... in the fullness of time). It sounds to me, and correct if I'm wrong, that you are viewing your own game world with a level of seriousness/importance that doesn't line up with the concept of playing a social game with others. You also seem to look down on the rest of the people at the table... again, not generally a recommended approach when getting together with others socially.
It depends on the person.

Many people do see games as a casual waste to time. They get together to relax, goof off, tell stories, watch you tube, act dumb....oh, and maybe kind of sort of play a bit of a game for a couple minutes.

Like over the holidays at a get together. One of the girls got Barbie Monopoly. So all the girls gather on the living room floor and sort of play the game.....for eleven minutes. Then they run off to do something else leaving the game right there on the floor. Only minutes later mom walks in the living room and teps on the game board sending money and houses flying everywhere. Fun fun fun!

Of course, there are us other people that take games more serious. We don't play the game to goof around and occasionally drop some dice. We play for the thrill, the challenge and more deep things.

And you don't think it's odd that out of all of us DMs here, only you see that many problem players?
Well, no, why would I?

Most posters online, like most gamers in real life, think basicaly all the same things about everything.

I walk a different path.

I first discovered this game in 1982! I would never call myself an 'expert D&D player'. To me, that's weird... like calling yourself an 'expert Monopoly player'. I could see someone being referred to as an expert bridge player, or tennis player. There's a level of skill there that actually affects how the play develops with those games. D&D, you just play it.
You don't think it takes any skill to play a game like D&D? That is just pure crazy.
 

pemerton

Legend
The optimal skill number is a variable calculated along several axes: what are a game's core activities, how much simulationism does the designer want, how important is character differentiation and/or niche protection, how closely should the design emulate other games in the genre, and I'm sure some other things I'm overlooking.
One of those "other things" is what sort of focus/grittiness do we want in the framing of action declarations?
 

Bagpuss

Legend
This is simply untrue. The DC table didn't work that way. Knocking out the easy part, the word wall does not exist on the table & neither of the two climb entries are DC20. None of the dc30 entroes align with your examples either The whole table had four columns.

I'm literally quoting from the rulebook right next to me.

Climb page 69 - DC 20 - A uneven surface with some narrow handholds and footholds, such as a typical wall in a dungeon or ruins. DC 25 - A rough surface, such as natural rock wall or a brick wall.

A surface being wet adds +5 so that matches with the Table you referenced where a slick brick wall is DC30, except it says Hurriedly climb, so that adds another +5 to the DC for moving faster than half your speed. So it would be DC35.

Escape Artist page 73 - DC 30 Manacles, DC 30 Tight Spaces, DC35 Masterworked Manacles.

Those columns were DC, example, roll(key ability), and most importantly "who could do it". This post has the list itself in a spoiler.

Not sure where you are getting this Table 2–5: Difficulty Class Examples, as there isn't a Table 2-5 in the rulebook.

The Difficulty Class Examples is Table 4-3 only has eight examples, for DC 0, DC 5 (Knotted rope only climb example), DC 10, DC15, DC20, DC25, DC 30 and all the way to DC 40 - Track orcs across hard ground after rainfall.
 
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Bagpuss

Legend
I think you missed the portion of that post that said, "With 4 skill points a level and no cross class skills, it worked out fine." I should now amend that to say that classes that got more should still get more.

I think you missed the part where I said even the Rogues (who got 8) complained about a lack of skill points.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
I'm literally quoting from the rulebook right next to me.

Climb page 69 - DC 20 - A uneven surface with some narrow handholds and footholds, such as a typical wall in a dungeon or ruins. DC 25 - A rough surface, such as natural rock wall or a brick wall.

A surface being wet adds +5 so that matches with the Table you referenced where a slick brick wall is DC30, except it says Hurriedly climb, so that adds another +5 to the DC for moving faster than half your speed. So it would be DC35.

Escape Artist page 73 - DC 30 Manacles, DC 30 Tight Spaces, DC35 Masterworked Manacles.



Not sure where you are getting this Table 2–5: Difficulty Class Examples, as there isn't a Table 2-5 in the rulebook.

The Difficulty Class Examples is Table 4-3 only has eight examples, for DC 0, DC 5 (Knotted rope only climb example), DC 10, DC15, DC20, DC25, DC 30 and all the way to DC 40 - Track orcs across hard ground after rainfall.
Dmg, it's also quite a bit more authoritative on the topic of what DCs the GM will set when they set a DC than the spitballing estimate the phb provides to players. Players being led to over-estimate the DC and then be pleasantly surprised if they fell a little short of that estimate but still succeeded is far more preferable than being frustrated or feeling cheated if they under estimated and cleared the estimate but still failed.

I'll edit this post later with page numbers.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I think you missed the part where I said even the Rogues (who got 8) complained about a lack of skill points.
Nah. I played rogues as they were tied as my favorite 3e class. They got plenty. The people who complained just wanted to be able to do everything and that was never part of the rogue class. And really, all they had to do was put a 12 or 14 in int and be human and they had 9-11 a level and could do much more. There was also the phenomenon where people mistakenly thought that they needed to raise every skill in perpetuity, when really most skills only needed 5-8 ranks, depending on stat bonus.


The vast majority of DCs were 10-15. Occasionally a 20. If you were hitting 25+ on anything resembling a regular basis, the DM was doing DCs incorrectly.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Well, no, why would I?

Most posters online, like most gamers in real life, think basicaly all the same things about everything.

I walk a different path.
A lot of people in life have walked a different path and were wrong. Walking a different path doesn't make you right.

The main problem you have here is that you still haven't told us in detail what you mean by railroading. Now you're saying you have a different definition for "problem player."

What you need to do is create a thread entitled, "Bloodtide Translator" and give us every definition you've changed in detail so that we can actually understand you. Until you do, you're having one conversation and the rest of us are having a different conversation. There's no point in us communicating with you or you with us while that is happening.
 

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