I want my actions to matter

[hawkeyefan]

Do you show them the monster stat block before they decide to attack or come up with a tactic? I see no need for someone to know the exact DC, esp. not in cases where they do not have all the information for whatever reason.

I mean, most of my players also GM pretty regularly... so they already have a good idea of a monster's stats. I don't generally hold back... I tell them AC and hit points for sure. In other games, I'll likely share more than that.

If there's something that's genuinely surprising... like some ability that's not obvious, then I probably wouldn't share that. But otherwise, I'm uninterested in hiding things from the players. I want them to play the game and make informed decisions and then see what happens. I don't want to watch them constantly guess about everything.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I can assure you that in my case, it has nothing to do with "certain DMs" or a "lack of trust" or "desire to force the DM to play a certain way for them to feel comfortable". That framing is a supposition on your part. And an odd one since you've stated your preference on how this is handled is entirely about your comfort.

It is about transparency. It's about not hiding information from the players of a game when they're expected to make decisions about how to approach play. It's also about using the game's mechanics to help communicate the situation in the fiction. If a steep climb on a slick surface means the Athletics DC to climb is 18, then why not just say 18? Doing so simply communicates "steep" and "click" how they relate to a game's mechanics. It removes the vagueness of simple description and gives the player a clear understanding.

Not doing so simply because hearing numbers breaks immersion... I don't know. Seems odd. I mean... how do we know how good a character is at climbing? What does it say on the character sheet, "pretty darn good" or "+8"? What does the die roll tell us, "a valiant effort, but not quite" or "4"?

Seems really odd to be comfortable with all the math that comes into play with a game like D&D, except with Difficulty Classes.



But then when you don't share the DC, the player will know there's something unobserved at play, which their characters won't know!!!

Which makes it just as likely they'll base their decision on what they don't know... so metagaming is unavoided!

My issue is I don't want the DM's descriptions of the world to be awash in game mechanics. It isn't necessary or desired IMO if you trust your DM to provide an accurate picture of what your PC is experiencing, from their point of view. The mechanics are there because we need them to provide a framework for the setting and our actions in it. Flaunting them in play hurts my immersion because it emphasizes the fact that the whole experience is a construct.

 

[hawkeyefan]

My issue is I don't want the DM's descriptions of the world to be awash in game mechanics. It isn't necessary or desired IMO if you trust your DM to provide an accurate picture of what your PC is experiencing, from their point of view. The mechanics are there because we need them to provide a framework for the setting and our actions in it. Flaunting them in play hurts my immersion because it emphasizes the fact that the whole experience is a construct.

Right, but my point is that (a) I still expect a description along with the DC, so it's not all "just numbers", and (b) everything else is represented by numbers, so what's the big deal with one more.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

It is about transparency. It's about not hiding information from the players of a game when they're expected to make decisions about how to approach play. It's also about using the game's mechanics to help communicate the situation in the fiction. If a steep climb on a slick surface means the Athletics DC to climb is 18, then why not just say 18? Doing so simply communicates "steep" and "slick" how they relate to a game's mechanics. It removes the vagueness of simple description and gives the player a clear understanding.

Not doing so simply because hearing numbers breaks immersion... I don't know. Seems odd. I mean... how do we know how good a character is at climbing? What does it say on the character sheet, "pretty darn good" or "+8"? What does the die roll tell us, "a valiant effort, but not quite" or "4"?

Seems really odd to be comfortable with all the math that comes into play with a game like D&D, except with Difficulty Classes.

Yep, I agree with this. If numbers are used to represent things that exist in the setting, then the numbers can also help in communicating those things.

But then when you don't share the DC, the player will know there's something unobserved at play, which their characters won't know!!!

Which makes it just as likely they'll base their decision on what they don't know... so metagaming is unavoided!

We probably could concoct some edge case where this happens, but I don't find to be a common issue in practice. Usually it is pretty obvious when things are unobservable. For example when you are trying to perceive or investigate something but do not know what there exactly is to find, it is rather obvious that you don't know how hard finding it is!

 

[hawkeyefan]

Yep, I agree with this. If numbers are used to represent things that exist in the setting, then the numbers can also help in communicating those things.


We probably could concoct some edge case where this happens, but I don't find to be a common issue in practice. Usually it is pretty obvious when things are unobservable. For example when you are trying to perceive or investigate something but do not know what there exactly is to find, it is rather obvious that you don't know how hard finding it is!

Yeah, that's fair. I get it. My last comment was more a joke because I think a lot of attempts at avoiding metagaming actively result in metagaming.

But I get the idea of keeping some things unknown if there's a compelling reason.

 

[Hand of Evil]

What IF. What if everything, for every action there is a reaction. When the players do something think of something to follow it up on and keep records, just do not drop it build off the action. Just be prepared for a lot of notes. Example of this, players keep using fireballs in buildings and soon becomes wanted for arson. Destroyed taverns, stay that way or are re-built with a story. When a big bad is defeated, what moves into the void?

Contacts and friends, it is a house rule I use. A number based off Intelligence, Chrisma and Level (but can be whatever works for you) allow the players to pull information out of the air. They enter a city, and the fighter just happens to know a weapon smith he can contact for information. He would use one of his Contacts and Friends points, give an overview of the NPC and plot moves forward.

Back story hooks. Create a list of events that are happening or have happened, for noise. They could be related to the plot (at least one should be) or just stupid crap, this is what people are talking about. Example, bridge is out, orcs are on the warpath, some gang burned down a tavern and coming this way, the big bad of Whoville is no more, the king is coming to town, someone's grandmother got run over. The payers will see their action and feel a part of the world.

 

[Lanefan]

And? The fact that you've changed your mind since then doesn't make your new feelings objectively better than your old ones or @Lanefan 'S current feelings. How is that statement less insulting to him than his statement was to your feelings?

Defense noted, thanks, but not to worry: no insult taken here.

 

[Lanefan]

I can assure you that in my case, it has nothing to do with "certain DMs" or a "lack of trust" or "desire to force the DM to play a certain way for them to feel comfortable". That framing is a supposition on your part. And an odd one since you've stated your preference on how this is handled is entirely about your comfort.

It is about transparency. It's about not hiding information from the players of a game when they're expected to make decisions about how to approach play. It's also about using the game's mechanics to help communicate the situation in the fiction. If a steep climb on a slick surface means the Athletics DC to climb is 18, then why not just say 18? Doing so simply communicates "steep" and "slick" how they relate to a game's mechanics. It removes the vagueness of simple description and gives the player a clear understanding.

Do people in the real world always have that much clarity on the challenges facing them? I'd posit that except under controlled situations*, it's pretty rare.

As I want the characters in the game world to have roughly the same experiences real people would if put in those situations, I'm going to try to give about the same amount of clarity that real people would reasonably have.

* - an example of such being a weightlifter who knows there's 300 lbs on that barbell, and who knows his own capabilities. But if that same weightlifter was put in front of a barbell and not be told its weight, the best he could do to estimate his odds of successfully lifting it would be to look at the physical size of the weights and educated-guess from that, giving far less accurate a reading.

Not doing so simply because hearing numbers breaks immersion... I don't know. Seems odd. I mean... how do we know how good a character is at climbing? What does it say on the character sheet, "pretty darn good" or "+8"? What does the die roll tell us, "a valiant effort, but not quite" or "4"?

I'd rather leave the numbers and mechanics to the DM as far as possible. Yes it says 4 on the die, now tell me what that means this time.

But then when you don't share the DC, the player will know there's something unobserved at play, which their characters won't know!!!

Which makes it just as likely they'll base their decision on what they don't know... so metagaming is unavoided!

Unless you never share the DC, in which case there's no difference in behavior for anyone to key on.

 

[Lanefan]

I mean, most of my players also GM pretty regularly... so they already have a good idea of a monster's stats. I don't generally hold back... I tell them AC and hit points for sure. In other games, I'll likely share more than that.

In fairness, if most of your players are also DMs that does make a big difference. They've seen under the hood and now can't un-see it.

Most of mine have usually been forever-players, who at the time have either never DMed or whose DMing experience would fit on a pinhead with room to spare. They often neither know nor care much about what goes on under the hood, as long as the car keeps running well.

 

[pemerton]

It is about transparency. It's about not hiding information from the players of a game when they're expected to make decisions about how to approach play. It's also about using the game's mechanics to help communicate the situation in the fiction. If a steep climb on a slick surface means the Athletics DC to climb is 18, then why not just say 18? Doing so simply communicates "steep" and "slick" how they relate to a game's mechanics. It removes the vagueness of simple description and gives the player a clear understanding.

Not doing so simply because hearing numbers breaks immersion... I don't know. Seems odd. I mean... how do we know how good a character is at climbing? What does it say on the character sheet, "pretty darn good" or "+8"? What does the die roll tell us, "a valiant effort, but not quite" or "4"?

Seems really odd to be comfortable with all the math that comes into play with a game like D&D, except with Difficulty Classes.

The Burning Wheel Adventure Burner directly addresses this (pp 264-5):

[O]bstacles create setting. When a player acts in the game, he needs a difficulty for his test. The obstacle is the number, but it's also the object of adversity in the fiction. Obstacles, over time, create a sense of space and time in the game world. . . .

I often flinch when I assess a steep penalty. I don't like punishing anyone for trying to be heroic. However, there's a massively positive side to obstacle modifiers In design parlance, they are feedback. You perform an actions and the game gives you feedback about that action. In this case, the feedback lets the player know about the difficulties and limits of the environment and his character. This is important. The game exists only as an exchange between our imaginations and the rules. The penalties give us a scale and a structure for our imagination.​