I want smaller, leaner core books.

[Zsong]

But is it hyperbolic?

Sure, the D&D5e PHB doesn't have that. But the Pathfinder 2e CRB is over 600 pages long and weighs more than 4 lbs. It's the biggest rulebook of any game that you'll never use because HOLY COW!! THE CORE RULEBOOK IS OVER 600 PAGES LONG?!?!?

We can improve. We can break 1000 pages.

 

[Haffrung]

"There is no RPG that you could not present in a complete fashion in 64 pages with the right clarity of writing and layout. RPG core books are instruction manuals. They are technical writing. They can and should be much less prose dense and be much more utilitarian in design."

That caters to people who are already in the hobby with a certain level of expertise. It would have nearly zero chance of appealing to novices and new players.

And without them...well, you certainly wouldn't be burdened with any further products.

The boardgaming hobby is booming right now, and boardgames feature concise, lean, rulebooks.

 

[DemoMonkey]

True! And the novel industry is doing great too. They can be pretty long, I hear.

I mean, as long as we're comparing apples to things-that-are-definitely-not-apples.

 

[Haffrung]

True! And the novel industry is doing great too. They can be pretty long, I hear.

I mean, as long as we're comparing apples to things-that-are-definitely-not-apples.

I’d suggest RPGs are competing with the same market as hobby boardgames, and the experience new players are expecting - learn rules, sit down at table with friends, play game using those rules - is far closer to boardgames than to reading a novel.

 

[DemoMonkey]

I'm not sure. When I started, I considered the experience much closer to acting out what I read in LOTR than I did to our 6 hour Risk marathons.

 

[Reynard]

I'm not sure. When I started, I considered the experience much closer to acting out what I read in LOTR than I did to our 6 hour Risk marathons.

I agree that RPGs are distinct, but I would not necessarily say that they are essentially closer to a novel than a board game. RPGs have survived, thrived and expanded as a medium precisely because they are a distinct form of entertainment. Other things may compete for our time, but none, not even MMORPGs, quite serve the same entertainment purpose as do RPGs.

That said, I do think that a complex board game approach to laying out rules is not a terrible idea, especially if, as stated above, we are talking about a boxed set or slipcase format where the Rules and the Game (for lack of a better term) are separated.

 

[Jd Smith1]

I’d suggest RPGs are competing with the same market as hobby boardgames, and the experience new players are expecting - learn rules, sit down at table with friends, play game using those rules - is far closer to boardgames than to reading a novel.

Well said.

As a GM, its my job to wade through the endless prose and try to anticipate the actual applications. And that gets old when the rules are buried in verbiage.

I was just wading through the player guide to Adventures in Middle Earth, and it was like they were getting paid by the word. Just tell me what the class can do; give me a quick gist on what the different types on Men are, say a quarter-page each (not page after page). The players are going to make up their own minds about what those backgrounds mean in any case, so all the boring prose will mean squat.

Lay out the rules as rules, and go one. Because as I'm wading through your unnecessary text I'm already highlighting what I feel is important, and I will next again return to the un-highlighted portions.

I can see why an excellent idea went out of print.

The difference between 1e and 5e is that 5e came up with about 5 pages of useful tweaks on 1e.

This is why I only use the PHB, and that house-ruled.

 

[Umbran]

The problem, folks, is that RPG rulebooks don't serve a single, focused purpose.

Concise, clear writing is great... for a reference book. It is great for someone who already knows what they are doing, and who already knows they want to buy the thing.

It is bad for learning, though - you all had really dry textbooks in school that were terrible to read, didn't you? It is also bad as a marketing-object - if the person isn't sure they want to buy that book, a wall of clear, concise, dense text will not get them the idea of what the game book is about without them having to read most of the book before they buy it. For these purposes, you need art, text that's evocative, and such.

So, as long as your RPG book has to do triple duty as a reference work, a teaching work, and a marketing artifact, you're going to have to accept compromises.

 

[Jd Smith1]

The problem, folks, is that RPG rulebooks don't serve a single, focused purpose.

Concise, clear writing is great... for a reference book. It is great for someone who already knows what they are doing, and who already knows they want to buy the thing.

It is bad for learning, though - you all had really dry textbooks in school that were terrible to read, didn't you? It is also bad as a marketing-object - if the person isn't sure they want to buy that book, a wall of clear, concise, dense text will not get them the idea of what the game book is about without them having to read most of the book before they buy it. For these purposes, you need art, text that's evocative, and such.

So, as long as your RPG book has to do triple duty as a reference work, a teaching work, and a marketing artifact, you're going to have to accept compromises.

Except that other game systems, current and past, have clearly demonstrated the ability to deliver on all three without page bloat.

 

[LePiotr]

Except that other game systems, current and past, have clearly demonstrated the ability to deliver on all three without page bloat.

You can write in a concise and entertaining, evocative way. Look at Runehammer. That's what talented people do when they are not paid by the word IMHO. Again, the point is such a ruleset should not be cheaper. Some people may unfortunately still have an impression they are being cheated if they pay the same price for a book half the pages long. That's not my case, though.