I want to do something cool Every Round!!!

[Gold Roger]

Just to inject a slightly different perspective on this, I'm currently playing Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying. In WFRP, the Wizard CAN do "something cool" (if by something cool you mean casting a spell) every round. His resources are theoretically unlimited. There are only two drawbacks to using them.

First, success is not assured. He's VERY likely to successfully cast that low level "Magic Dart" spell that does about the same damage as a mediocre fighter swinging a sword or shooting a bow. But his odds of casting the super badass spell are rather poor. He can up them by making a skill check and expending a focus (that might be rare or costly) but he's still probably only got about a 50% chance of doing his coolest thing.

Second, he could possibly go insane or be corrupted by Chaos. Those are generally considered to be "bad things".

I like the dilemma it presents. It means that, if he's willing to take some chances and press his luck, the Wizard can tap that limitless power if he really feels the need is there. But is it worth the risk he's taking? Maybe not.

It's not "resource management". It's "risk management"!

But the Warhammer World caters to a completely different notion of magic and how it works.

Also, one reason I really like about recource management is the idea to go all out in a really big encounter, which differenciates it from the smalller one. With such a risk system I'd rather not go all out with everything already on the line.

I've got no problem with a wizard that can pretty much throw out minor missiles at will, bards that can sing whenever they want, barbarians that can rage every encounter and druids shapechanging as fancy strikes them.

But I'd prefer many other effects to stay reliable but limited. A fireball is just worth so much more when you know you can cast it only twice today, so you will have to make those uses really count.

I'm sorry, but personally, if I knew casting fireball might have me blow up my own group in a hard encounter, even with only a 10% chance, I wouldn't play a spellcaster in such a system. And I'd stay far away from any spellcaster in-game.

Which can be fun, but doesn't exactly match up with D&D, imho.

 

[Gundark]

That's functionally no different than the wizard whipping out the crossbow when he's low/out of spells.

I disagree. I think the blast would scale as the wizard levels, the crossbow really doesn't. Also fluff wise launching a blast is IMHO more "wizardy" than whipping out the old crossbow. Also with the wizards poor BAB he's gonna miss more often than not, a blast attack could be a ranged touch or something like that thus be more usuful.

 

[Felix]

Currently a wizard out of spells is a commoner.

And a wizard with a head full of spells can make the laws of physics shut up and sit down, as Vaarsuvius would say; what's your point?

You get a perk and a drawback hand in hand. Want to do something you're good at every round? Play an archer.

The problem I have with "I'm cool every round" is the idea that the individual character is the focus; I have never had a good experience where 5 guys every round show how their character is the best. The focus needs to be on the group and the dynamics within the group.

If the wizard thinks that he might better serve the party by saving that fireball, then it's a good thing for him to do so rather than satiate his desire to do something cool and fry a bunch of kobolds. Does he get whacked by the troll later on in the cave? Oh well, too bad. What if he ends the day with the fireball still available? Oh well, the fighters had their time in the sun. Let them.

 

[Rel]

I'm sorry, but personally, if I knew casting fireball might have me blow up my own group in a hard encounter, even with only a 10% chance, I wouldn't play a spellcaster in such a system. And I'd stay far away from any spellcaster in-game.

For what it's worth, it's less than a 10% chance (by a considerable margin in most cases), if you're smart and careful you get a chance to reroll the dice AND you probably only blow up yourself rather than the whole party.

 

[delericho]

The problem I have with "I'm cool every round" is the idea that the individual character is the focus; I have never had a good experience where 5 guys every round show how their character is the best. The focus needs to be on the group and the dynamics within the group.

There's certainly a measure of truth in that. However, I'm inclined to think that the balance could do with a bit of tweaking. At the least, I think Wizards could do with more weaker spells, and perhaps fewer more powerful spells (where weaker and more powerful are determined by the Wizard's level). And those 'weaker' spells probably need to scale up a bit better than they do currently.

If the wizard thinks that he might better serve the party by saving that fireball, then it's a good thing for him to do so rather than satiate his desire to do something cool and fry a bunch of kobolds. Does he get whacked by the troll later on in the cave? Oh well, too bad. What if he ends the day with the fireball still available? Oh well, the fighters had their time in the sun. Let them.

The problem is it doesn't seem to work like that. More commonly, the wizard decides to use his fireball against the kobolds, then informs the rest of the party that he's out of his 'good' spells and needs to rest. Because the party want to face challenges at as close to optimum effectiveness as possible, they are forced to rest. Thus, the wizard gets to do something cool every round, and the benefits of the resource management part of the game are lost.

Of course, the DM can do various things that make it difficult for the party to rest. However, there are only so many times you can send the party on a time-critical mission. And you can only have them attacked in the night so many times before it becomes clear that you're punishing them for their actions rather than being at all impartial. Basically, if the DM starts trying to insist on the recommended four encounters per game day, it becomes a significant stretch of suspension of disbelief. (Not to mention that when the party is attacked in the night, the characters who suffer most are those who make use of armour. Moreover, if they're resting to recover hit points/healing magic, the last thing you want to do to encourage them to do otherwise is cause them more wounds.)

 

[IceFractal]

Some of the complaints that unlimited-use of abilities take away strategy seem to be based on the assumption that the game would be exactly the same except that all abilities would be unlimited use. Obviously, this would not be the case.

Specifically, people have mentioned always blowing your most powerful spell at the beginning of the fight. What it that wasn't an option? What if you started gathering focus at the beginning of the encounter, and could either cast a relatively weak spell right away, or wait a few rounds to attain full focus and launch a much more powerful spell? That's strategy right there - especially if you're talking about a defensive spell that could save everyone's hide ... can they hold out long enough to get the better protection? And will the fight last long enough to make it worthwhile? If anything, you get more strategy, as "go full blast, rest, repeat" is no longer the most desirable plan.

Also, magic can certainly have costs in such a system - the difference is that the cost takes place before and during the casting, rather than afterwards. More powerful spells take longer to cast, and make you more vulnerable while casting them. So it's still just as crucial a choice - toss around Magic Missiles with impunity? Or risk it all to cast Disintegrate?


Some thoughts on structuring such a system:
1) Magic and health can be recovered with a short meditation, probably about 1-5 minutes, so pretty much after each combat is over.
2) However, the meditation is long enough that if several waves of enemies were to come rapidly (within a few rounds of the previous wave's demise), you could have a multi-part battle with diminishing resources.
3) Powerful abilities are balanced by increased difficulty to use, and/or increased vulnerability when using them, rather than by expending daily resources.
4) Really powerful attacks (physical or magical) can cause wounds, which are a lot harder to get rid of, requiring either several days care, or powerful spells that cost XP/much gold.
5) Wounds, however, do not directly lead to death - a wounded character will be at a disadvantage in a fight, and thus probably more likely to die, but someone who wants to or needs to press on can do so, despite their injuries.


And finally, about the Swordsage. If it bothers you that they can fly, just think of them as a type of spellcaster whose abilities often happen to incorporate weaponry and melee combat. A melee-buff oriented Cleric might spend most of their time duking it out toe-to-toe, but nobody complains when they do cast a spell like Planar Ally.

 

[ValhallaGH]

That's functionally no different than the wizard whipping out the crossbow when he's low/out of spells.

Except for two important points.
1) It's cooler to chuck eldritch darts than it is to fire a crossbow.
2) The eldritch darts are mechanically superior to a crossbow.

That's a player issue, not a game problem. I've yet to see a wizard run out of spells once they got past the first few levels, much less a sorceror.

I guess the GMs for your games cater to casters more than the GMs for mine have.

 

[ValhallaGH]

4) Really powerful attacks (physical or magical) can cause wounds, which are a lot harder to get rid of, requiring either several days care, or powerful spells that cost XP/much gold.
5) Wounds, however, do not directly lead to death - a wounded character will be at a disadvantage in a fight, and thus probably more likely to die, but someone who wants to or needs to press on can do so, despite their injuries.

This sounds a lot like ability damage / drain.

Serious without being fatal (except for Con); takes much time or powerful magic to recover from; character can ignore it and press on despite the penalties.

Just trying to be helpful.

 

[Felix]

The problem is it doesn't seem to work like that. More commonly, the wizard decides to use his fireball against the kobolds, then informs the rest of the party that he's out of his 'good' spells and needs to rest. Because the party want to face challenges at as close to optimum effectiveness as possible, they are forced to rest. Thus, the wizard gets to do something cool every round, and the benefits of the resource management part of the game are lost.

I've seen that one too. But I would argue that this case is brought about because of desires to want to do something cool every round. In combat the Wizard's player doesn't think, "How can I best help the group?" but instead asks, "Which spell should I cast?"

If you have a wizard casting a spell every round he's going to be useless after one or maybe two encounters. But there are plenty of things he can be doing besides spellcasting that will aid in combat that arn't spellcasting. Readied actions spring to mind; he might not have to cast that spell, but if the Ogre charges the fighter then a Grease spell in front of him is going to be mighty handy. Counterspelling, readying a crossbow shot, Aiding in combat with a reach weapon (Sorcerers do this easier).

If the party being forced to rest is caused by a spellcaster player needing to do something cool, I don't think the solution is to encourage that behavior.

I guess the GMs for your games cater to casters more than the GMs for mine have.

You don't always have to cast a spell. If you're continually running out of spells, you're either running into 4 or more encounters a day or you're casting spells at every opportunity.

If it's the first case, then yes, it's going to be harder on you that the game is set up for; the game is balanced with 4 encounters in mind, and more than that will drain your resources bare. This is not necessiarly a bad thing though; at very least with that many encounters the punch you get out of the spells you do cast doesn't overshadow the mundanes who hurt less but can keep going all day long.

In the second case, well... there is such a thing as frivilous spellcasting, and if you are out of spells every day this could very well be part of the problem. Magic is a tool to solve problems, yes; it's not the only tool.

----

I suppose the problem I have with some kind of magical dart a Wizard can always use is that the Gauntlet Legends "Blue Wizard Needs Food!" always pops into my head. It's not a mechanical or balance issue: I'm sure an at will magical dart could be made to balance just fine. I just can't stand the flavor of it. I want to be scared when the opposing evil wizard starts casting a spell after a few rounds of surveying his minions fighting the heroes; I don't want him immediately blasting away with a magical dart. And I want my wizards to aspire to that level of intimidation.

That's all personal opinion of course, and your taste may very well vary; it is certainly something that can be brought up in a discussion like this, however. I don't want that kind of taste affecting my Wizard; leave that schtick to the Warlock and allow the GM to include as he likes.

 

[Victim]

The problem I have with "I'm cool every round" is the idea that the individual character is the focus; I have never had a good experience where 5 guys every round show how their character is the best. The focus needs to be on the group and the dynamics within the group.

Being cool every round in a group context usually means using synergies instead of waiting your turn. The monk grapples some guy to cripple his offense, and then the ninja nails him with sneak attacks.

If you have a wizard casting a spell every round he's going to be useless after one or maybe two encounters. But there are plenty of things he can be doing besides spellcasting that will aid in combat that arn't spellcasting. Readied actions spring to mind; he might not have to cast that spell, but if the Ogre charges the fighter then a Grease spell in front of him is going to be mighty handy. Counterspelling, readying a crossbow shot, Aiding in combat with a reach weapon (Sorcerers do this easier).

One of the issues here is that of tactical versus strategic challenges. While it might be wasting a spell to do stuff every round, the wizard could just as easily be said to be wasting his action by using time wasters like aid, most ready actions, crossbow plinking. Whether or not actions or spells are the more valuable resource probably depends on the game style and the level. From my PoV, if your wizard can afford to screw around like that, then the fights might be too easy. What does greasing the ogre if he charges do that just greasing him does? Besides possibly waste your action if he doesn't charge the fighter.

If every round is dangerous, then not doing something significant every round is immediately problematic. If the danger is attrition, then there's only a downside to going all out if time is somehow critical. Also, a team of adventurers will usually rest if any one guy really needs it, then there's a strong incentive to for most players to match the fastest burn rate. Considering the payoffs, is it really any surprise that people will choose to use resources quickly?