Iconic Spells and Levels

[Minigiant]

I really hope spells don't overlap. I am of the opinion that each class should have a unique spell list that fits the style of the class. A bard doesn't need to be a wizard that wears leather armor and plays a lute. I also hope that core Ranger and Paladin are without the typical Vancian spells. The bard should just be modeled after Monte Cook's bard from his Eldritch Might II book.

I will also point out that spells seem to have greater effect if slotted into a higher spell slot.

Nah. I don't want to see 4 versions of Cure Light Wounds Read Magic, and Dispel Magic.

Hey, what the heck? No animate dead?

6 spell per level AIN'T gonna work for wizards.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I really hope spells don't overlap. I am of the opinion that each class should have a unique spell list that fits the style of the class.

I disagree. One of the problems that 4e had was giving each and every class its own, entirely 100% unique list of powers/spells, even though many of them were basically the same power with a different name. This led to enormous wasted page count, entire books full of practically nothing but powers, and, IMO, alot of quantity over quality in power design, to make sure each class had enough powers.

While I think each class should have some unique powers/spells, I don't see any problem with overlap. In addition to avoiding all of the problems I mentioned above, a smaller number of spells and powers in the game makes the system easier to master. Players and DMs can more easily familiarize themselves with a smaller number of spells, and then when they see that spell included in a class's spell list, they instantly have a good gauge of what that class is capable of, and only need to learn about those spells that are unique to that class, rather than ALL of them.

A bard doesn't need to be a wizard that wears leather armor and plays a lute.

I agree. In fact, I think it would be better if the Bard didn't have spells at all. They could have some magical music class abilities and such instead.

I also hope that core Ranger and Paladin are without the typical Vancian spells.

I agree. If they are going to give Rangers and Paladins spells, I at least hope they will be optional.

 

[the Jester]

Ok, so in the pod cast...

[MENTION=67338]GMforPowergamers[/MENTION], do you have a link?

 

[Falling Icicle]

6 spells per level is just not going to be enough for vancian casting wizards. They could considerably cut down the size of the spell list by combining alot of redundant spells, though (i.e. mage hand could include open/close, silent/major/minor image could just be phantasmal image, charm person/monster could just be charm, etc).

If I had to choose six of the most iconic spells of each level, these are probably the one's I'd choose. Of course, alot of these spells could very well change level, be combined with other redundant spells, and so on, and I'm sure alot of the more situational spells (i.e. secret page, permanency, contingency, etc.) could work fine as rituals.

0th: arcane mark, detect magic, ghost sound, light, mage hand, prestidigitation

1st: burning hands, charm person, feather fall, grease, magic missile, silent image

2nd: invisibility, knock, levitate, melf's acid arrow, mirror image, web

3rd: dispel magic, fireball, fly, haste, lightning bolt, slow

4th: animate dead, arcane eye, charm monster, dimension door, polymorph, wall of fire/ice

5th: cloudkill, cone of cold, dominate person, telekinesis, teleport, wall of force

6th: chain lightning, disintegrate, flesh to stone, planar binding, true seeing, wall of iron

7th: delayed blast fireball, finger of death, greater scrying, mordenkainen's sword, reverse gravity, spell turning

8th: clone, horrid wilting, iron body, maze, Otto's irresistible dance, polymorph any object,

9th: bigby's crushing hand, gate, meteor swarm, mordenkainen's disjunction, time stop, wish

and of course one cannot forget the various summon monster spells.

 

[WarlockLord]

I'd be pretty happy seeing animate dead as a ritual.

Though I might replace Bigby's crushing hand above with wail of the banshee. And planar binding kinda doesn't work on the list above as it requires dimensional anchor and magic circle against x.

They definitely could cut down on the list by combining spells as Falling Icicle said, but why not the energy spells too (i.e. Blast spell, pick element, area as you level). Of course, I'm sure they won't because it's not D&Dish.

 

[GX.Sigma]

Remember, spells will have greater effects when prepared in higher spell slots. So all the charm spells would be one spell, just with escalating effects when you prepare it as a higher level spell. The various summoning and reanimating spells can do similar things.

 

[satori01]

Remember, spells will have greater effects when prepared in higher spell slots. So all the charm spells would be one spell, just with escalating effects when you prepare it as a higher level spell. The various summoning and reanimating spells can do similar things.

While this has been hinted at (and makes sense) , this has not been confirmed. I felt interested when the other speaker at Pax East essentially was advocating for more subtle powers, charm, illusion army terrain etc.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I'd be pretty happy seeing animate dead as a ritual.

I wouldn't mind that either, though it would be nice to also have a short cast time version that creates temporary undead.

And planar binding kinda doesn't work on the list above as it requires dimensional anchor and magic circle against x.

Planar binding would work better as a ritual, actually. I only included it in that list because it is one of the more iconic things wizards could do. Alot of spells could be done differently or made into rituals. Spell turning, for example, could just be part of the counterspelling rules instead of a buff (i.e. counterspelling could be an opposed roll and if you beat your opponent's roll by 10+, you don't just counterspell it, you turn it back on them).

 

[Szatany]

Let's see:
Wizard 0: Detect/Read Magic (probably better as a skill/feat), Mage Hand, Message, Prestidigitation
Wizard 1: Summon Monster, Feather Fall, Magic Missile, Sleep or Color Spray, Burning Hands, Charm Person, Identify
Wizard 2: Melf's Acid Arrow, See Invisiblity, Darkness, Flaming Sphere, Blur, Invisibility, Levitate
Wizard 3: Dispel Magic, Fireball, Tongues, Hold Person, Lightning Bolt, Fly, Haste, Slow
Wizard 4: Stoneskin, Dimension Door, Scrying, Fire Shield, Illusory Wall, Bestow Curse, Enervation, Polymorph, Freedom of Movement
Wizard 5: Cloudkill, Teleport, Dominate Person, Cone of Cold, Bigby's (any) Hand, Wall of Force
Wizard 6: True Seeing, Chain Lightning, Contingency, Eyebite, Disintegrate, Flesh to Stone
Wizard 7: Plane Shift, Forcecage, Prismatic Spray, Finger of Death
Wizard 8: Mind Blank, Prismatic Wall, Maze, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Clone, Abi-Dhalzim's Horrid Wilting
Wizard 9: Freedom, Disjunction, Gate, Teleportation Circle, Power Word Kill, Meteor Swarm, Astral Projection, Wail of the Banshee, Shapechange, Time Stop, Wish

Paladin 1: Bless Weapon, Detect Undead, Protection from Evil
Paladin 2: Shield Other, Zone of Truth
Paladin 3: nothing
Paladin 4: Holy Sword

 

[Szatany]

I would say Wizard 1-10 with them getting spell levels on every odd level (so at level 19 get level 10 spells)I would want Clerics to get level 1-7 getting them every 3 levels, so 1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th,and 18th

Agreed, I like this setup.

Nah. I don't want to see 4 versions of Cure Light Wounds Read Magic, and Dispel Magic.
6 spell per level AIN'T gonna work for wizards.

That's true. But lets not forget one thing. All (I hope) spells will be scaleable. That means as soon as a wizard reaches level 3, he will have 12 choices of what to put into his level 2 slots. 6 will be level 2 spells, and the other 6 will be improved versions of level 1 spells.