D&D 5E I'd really, really like to hear about some fights with Strahd . . !

[Seramus]

He has minions now? That affects the XP budget considerably (he's already a CR 15 Legendary, making him a Deadly encounter alone for 5 x 9th level PCs).
What minions are we talking?

His castle is full of minions. Why would he restrict himself to an XP Budget?

 

[Flamestrike]

What is not close to RAW, what I was reacting too or what I would do?

Your 'ruling' that attacking a grappled opponent has a chance of hitting an ally.

That's neither RAW nor RAI, but you do you.

 

[Flamestrike]

His castle is full of minions. Why would he restrict himself to an XP Budget?

What?

Oh OK then. My party hangs out in the forest killing boars till we hit 20th and get a few Epic boons under our belts before the encounter.

XP budgets and challenge ratings exist for a reason. The game is set up for PCs of levels 1-10 so I assumed 5 PCs of level 9 is a fair match for a solo CR 15 legendary (scraping into deadly).

 

[dave2008]

Your 'ruling' that attacking a grappled opponent has a chance of hitting an ally.

OK, that is what I thought. IIRC, 5e doesn't have any rule that differentiates whether a target is engaged with an ally or not, but thought I might have misremembered. It has been so long since I actually looked at the rules!

That's neither RAW nor RAI, but you do you.

Always do - it is the only way to play

 

[Seramus]

XP budgets and challenge ratings exist for a reason. The game is set up for PCs of levels 1-10 so I assumed 5 PCs of level 9 is a fair match for a solo CR 15 legendary (scraping into deadly).

Just tell me the conditions and rules you want to use.

 

[dave2008]

That's neither RAW nor RAI, but you do you.

PS - what do you think the intent of the rule (RAI) is?

 

[Swarmkeeper]

XP budgets and challenge ratings exist for a reason. The game is set up for PCs of levels 1-10 so I assumed 5 PCs of level 9 is a fair match for a solo CR 15 legendary (scraping into deadly).

In theory, your assumption has merit. In practice, I think we run into some issues. The concepts of XP budgets and CR have no allowance for magic items, given that the default assumption of 5e is that the game works fine without said magic items. The party, by the time they face Strahd in the Tarokka divined location, should have one or more powerful items to combat the Count. So, yeah, the XP/CR math gets quite fuzzy.

 

[fmacanadaguy]

Both spells wont work at the same time though.

But that's OK - he comes out of a wall with Greater invisibility, and he takes 3 ranged attacks and 2 cantrip attacks (from a party of 5 PCs).


And as soon as he walks through the wall he is subject to (number of PCs) readied actions.


In the above case, teamwork helps. Have one PC grapple him (reducing his speed to zero). He can turn into a mist on his turn the following round, but is otherwise subject to full attacks from every other PC present.

Strahd: Moves out from from Wall, casts spell, receives X number of readied action attacks. Presuming he doesnt walk back through the wall after wards
PC 1: Moves over and Grapples him.
Strahd LA: Cant assume mist form or move.
PCs 2-5: Unload on him.


I'd be happy to run a mock combat with 5 x 9th level PCs (1 rare and 1 uncommon item each, no specials) in your choice of 'final room' from the Taroka deck to fight him in. You can run him and do all the rolls. I trust you.

I back myself to kill him.

No, both spells don't. I am aware. You'd have to choose. I'd go with greater invisibility. You are also assuming everyone has ranged attacks. I have played this campaign 5 times with only twice to completion and the first time the DM was terrible and had us fight him outside the castle where he was a pushover without that lair action. The DM could have had him just retreat with his legendary actions but didn't. But in every game only half the party had ranged abilities and they were cantrips. Any other ranged abilities would only do half damage since there are no magic ranged weapons unless you add them yourself or do a spell like Magic Weapon. So with only half doing ranged cantrips, you will be rolling maybe 3 times if you have a warlock at disadvantage. As Strahd I'd take those odds given I can retreat back into the wall and wait to regen.

I've actually tried grappling him before. Rather than cast a spell if you succeed he can just goes mist form on his turn and retreat into the wall using legendary actions to move. Plus he flies in mist form. I am a barbarian in a party of a fighter, druid, rogue and monk. We burned all our resources chasing him all over the place and managed to pin him down a bit to reduce a large chunk of his HP but now we have nothing left to hold him with and he can regen and I think he has most of his spells still or he should. The DM runs him properly so at this point we are screwed.

I can see why the designers had to make this lair action for the campaign. When you look at all the locations you can find him, if he ends up a small enclosed space and he can't disappear through a wall, he's fried.

 

[Flamestrike]

In theory, your assumption has merit. In practice, I think we run into some issues. The concepts of XP budgets and CR have no allowance for magic items, given that the default assumption of 5e is that the game works fine without said magic items. The party, by the time they face Strahd in the Tarokka divined location, should have one or more powerful items to combat the Count. So, yeah, the XP/CR math gets quite fuzzy.

I factored that in above. I expressly stated 'no special powered items, and 1 rare and 1 uncommon each'.

Just tell me the conditions and rules you want to use.

5 x 9th level PCs (point buy, AL rules, 1 rare, 1 uncommon) take on Strahd in one of the rooms of the Castle (as determined by the Taroka deck).

We can assume the PCs are at full health, having just short rested and expended the last of their HD and few healing potions. Long rest casters will be down 1 spell of each level (other than their highest level, which they've been holding back for this fight), and Barbarians will have raged twice already, and Sorcerers have used half (round down) SP.

For minions, Strahd can be accompanied by 2 x CR 5 Vampire spawn and no more than 4 thematically appropriate mooks with a CR of no higher than 1 each for a total XP budget of 17,000 XP (without multiplication for extra numbers for the monsters) making this a Deadly+ encounter.

 

[fmacanadaguy]

Referring to lair actions. Most creatures cannot take the same Lair Action twice in a row:
View attachment 135184

However, Strahd is an exception:
View attachment 135185

Ah. Okay. I was looking more at the general rule on how lair actions work and didn't see anything. I didn't notice how each creature can sometimes have specific restrictions on lair actions like the Sphinx who apparently can only ever use each one only once between rests.

Strahd's lair actions is what makes him nearly impossible to kill when played like I think he should play: to win.

Example. Barbarian, Fighter (has sunsword), Cleric (has symbol), Rogue, & Monk against Strahd in his treasure room. Monk jumps in and hits a bit. Strahd phases through wall. Do not know where he will come out. Some vampire spawn are approaching so turn to face them to avoid being flanked. Strahd phases in, drops fireball in far room to hit several party members who had gone to face vampire spawn. Cleric ends up turning all spawn and they all scatter. Re-focus Strahd. Small hits get done, hurts what hit him back. More party members close in, he phases out. Spread out a bit not sure where he will return from. Several rounds later of waiting and it turns out he has run around the hallways and come back in through the study having regened any HP he lost earlier while party has depleted in HP.

So this back and forth keeps happening. Try to catch up to him, he closes the doors to separate party to divides and conquers. Could the party stick closer together? Maybe. But turn orders don't always allow for it. And then party might chase into a long hallway, he appears from nowhere and just fireballs again anyway so grouping up isn't going to help either. That is just playing smart with the resources he has. No minions really faced at all at this point. This is just him.

Now a different party could have an easier time. A warlock with eldritch blast, a wizard with counterspell, etc. But I can easily see ways you can have Strahd work around that too based on just the first two lair actions. And you won't necessarily have the perfect spells ready to go unless you somehow have perfect knowledge of how Strahd can fight and what he can do which people who haven't played the campaign before won't have knowledge of.

I'm working on changing his abilities now for my campaign. I just don't want to make the players feel powerless because of a stupidly strong lair action. Either I take away the lair action to replace it with a custom spell (like stoneshape but 5th level for that phasing effect) so therefore a limited amount of uses, or I keep it in as the cleric player who died has come back with a phase-like ability that has limited uses (costs a hit die per use) that could chase him through the walls with the holy symbol. Or I could take it out completely and come up with something entirely different. I'm more leaning towards the spell idea. He has spent centuries in Barovia and has studied magic. Why wouldn't he have invented his own spells? My narrative is also slightly different and the campaign expanded. I took things from the old domains of dread material and brought it in from the beginning, and as it turns out they are now coming out with a new ravenloft book. Hah.