Idea on keeping Vancian casters from novaing

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Er, actually, yeah, it is. If the problem was a Vancian caster blowing all their spells in one encounter (general implied definition of going nova) and you've shown and given them a reason not to do so then by the definition of the words "problem solved" yes, the problem was indeed solved.

No, it's not solved, because the Vancian caster is still driving everyone to a [small number of] encounter per day and then forcing a rest so that he can survive the expected wandering monsters.

The problem you're trying to solve is "Vancian caster resource expenditure forcing a 15-minute adventuring day," and now you've just forced it to happen from the other side: instead of running themselves dry quickly and then forcing a rest, they run themselves to minimum required to safely rest and then force a rest.

 

[Fifth Element]

You don't have to ensure there will be a random encounter. If their standard tactic is to nova and rest, random encounters will eventually occur. But it's not just random encounters either. As long as things in the environment react to the PCs, novaing and resting will come with a cost. Defenses may be strengthened. Retaliation may occur. Wholesale retreats (with whatever isn't nailed down) may also occur.

Absolutely, but this is highly situation-dependant, and as such doesn't work as a general solution.

I'm not suggesting that in-game occurrences don't serve to discourage this tactic, but it does put more onus on the DM to fight against the tactic rather than giving mechanical reasons why it won't work.

 

[pogre]

I like how Next handles this. My players are generally not novaing, because they have an alternative with their at-wills. ymmv.

With pure Vancian casters, having adventures with a time element - must be done by X, will certainly slow down some novaing. A lot of adventures lend themselves to at least a vague timeline - ex: they have my son in the dungeon. There is no explicit time limit but PCs will push to get to the kidnap victim.

 

[Fifth Element]

No, it's not solved, because the Vancian caster is still driving everyone to a single encounter per day and then forcing a rest so that he can survive the expected wandering monsters.

The problem you're trying to solve is "Vancian caster resource expenditure forcing a 15-minute adventuring day," and now you've just forced it to happen from the other side: instead of running themselves dry quickly and then forcing a rest, they run themselves to minimum required to safely rest and then force a rest.

Interesting point. You're saying that the party could simply change the level at which they decide to rest? This could in fact exacerbate the problem, because it could actually reduce the amount of casting the wizard does before wanting to rest again.

 

[KidSnide]

How about true Vancian casting:

* Even the most powerful Wizards have only a few spell slots
* Spells are rememorized between adventures by returning to the Wizard's home library
* A "Wizard" is not a guy in a robe who is hopeless at pretty much anything but casting spells. He's a guy that's got plenty of mundane adventuring skills, and can handle a sword in a fight, but also can do some awesome magic things every once in a while.

This is, essentially, the 13th Age solution. Wizards have a small number of spell slots that increase in level but only marginally increase in quantity. For all intents and purposes, these spell slots can only be recharged between adventures.* Since most spells can be cast at multiple levels, wizards don't have to lose their iconic abilities as their spell slots become more capable. (They can stop preparing a 3rd level Fireball and prepare a 7th level Fireball instead.)

Also, wizards can mitigate their dependency on "per-adventure" magic because, while the most powerful spells can be cast only once per adventure, less powerful spells can be cast at-will or once-per-encounter.

I'm not sure I'd advocate adopting this system wholesale for D&DN, but it's a useful approach to managing adventure pacing by keeping a more consistent supply of "daily" resources.

-KS

* Technically, I think it's supposed to be "every 4 encounters" which is too game-y for my tastes, but presented for full disclosure. Also, the PCs are allowed to retreat mid-adventure to recover resources, but are expected to suffer an undefined DM-provided in-game consequence.

 

[Herschel]

If only someone could come up with a system that still gives Wizards a few, big, powerful, daily spells, some solid ones that could be re-prep'd after a quick rest and component/study prep and even a couple of baseline spells they could use at any time. Then, even when you've blown your big guns you have some pretty good spells to fall back on and don't have to resort to throwing darts or missing with a crossbow. That would be awesome.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

If only someone could come up with a system that still gives Wizards a few, big, powerful, daily spells, some solid ones that could be re-prep'd after a quick rest and component/study prep and even a couple of baseline spells they could use at any time. Then, even when you've blown your big guns you have some pretty good spells to fall back on and don't have to resort to throwing darts or missing with a crossbow. That would be awesome.

Yeah, too bad no one has implemented such a system in a way, that feels like D&D casters.

The system of 4e comes close to that goal, but it needs to unify rituals with spells. And only 1 daily spell available per level, chosen fro 2 does not evoke the right feel.

If you had encounters and at-wills, but a big list of dailies, from which you could chose some more as you need, it could work. The implementation as it stands in 4e. No. You usually prepare the same spells over and over again. No strategically chosing, because you usually don´t have the tools fitting for the situation:

Fireball in narrow halls? No. Prepare lighning bot instead. Such things are really missed. But it is not all 4e´s fault. The bard in 3.x and the sorcerer also fail in that regard. I don´t mind, if there is a class, or even 2 kinds of wizards in next. But vancian magic is one of those things I really would miss if it was thrown out.

One thing I could live would be a system similar to spells&magic spellpoints, which bring a lot of flexibility by being allowed to memorize free spells of a level.

So my favourite wizard:

minor at-will cantrips
some encounter like abilities along the lines of 5e magic missile or 4e shield (or at-wills that need components)
vancian dailies that can turn the tide of battle
some spontaneously castable spells in some fashion

 

[DEFCON 1]

Or you could always do the even easier solution...

Set each fight further apart in distance so it takes longer than 15 minutes to get there.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

This is, essentially, the 13th Age solution. Wizards have a small number of spell slots that increase in level but only marginally increase in quantity. For all intents and purposes, these spell slots can only be recharged between adventures.* Since most spells can be cast at multiple levels, wizards don't have to lose their iconic abilities as their spell slots become more capable. (They can stop preparing a 3rd level Fireball and prepare a 7th level Fireball instead.)

That's also essentially half of the early RuneQuest "Divine Magic" solution, where RQ divine magic is very powerful compared to other magic, but only rechargeable in a temple, at some cost. Magic that comes back more readily isn't nearly as effective--though still very useful, of course.

The other half in RQ are various nasty limits/risks on sorcerers and shamans, but those didn't get really straightened out, IMO, until recently, alternating between too weak and too powerful before that, much like an early D&D wizard over his career.

 

[Minigiant]

In my homebrewed RPG, wizards regain X spell levels of spells per hour depending on what they did and what happened that hour.