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Ideas and musings on my ideal magic rules system

StreamOfTheSky

Adventurer
So, I've been thinking a lot about how I'd like spellcasting to be handled in a future version of D&D, and have gathered the basis for how I'd like to see it work. Most ideas are cribbed or modified from Arcana Evolved (AE) or a videogame called Baten Kaitos Origins (namely, the shared mana pool idea). Written in reference to 3E rules, as that is my prefered rules system and the one I am most familiar with. However, giving martial classes Su abilities and implementing a separate pool of "utility" spells and the whole mana thing being a sort of encounter-based rechargable mechanic is probably strongly reminiscent of 4E. Maybe.

My ideal magic system

Spells: Largely nerfed. However, blast spells get to choose each casting what energy type to apply. Heightened and diminished options like in AE will be common, to expand the flexibility of spells. Spells that obsolete skills, class features, or whole classes will face the harshest beatings (either banned outright or changed to provide a moderate bonus that anyone, including the class meant to do the skill/task could benefit from just as well), along with the most powerful/broken spells. Few spells will be personal range only, and those that are will be so for flavor or logical reasons, not as an excuse to make them more powerful.

Spells Known: Each class can spontaneously cast spells from a certain list or lists of spells. However, the “known spells” are newly chosen each day from those lists. Spells known each day can be divided up between combat and "out of combat" spells as the player wishes.

Utility / “out of combat” spells: Casters gain a very small amount of daily spell slots that exist solely for casting “out of combat” spells (like, each level up they may gain +1 total slots, casting stat likely won't add to slots per day, or will be added at a partial rate). While limited in quantity, these can be used in or out of combat and do not require mana to use. In general, long duration “buffs” are removed as options or weakened. All day boons are to be shifted to the province of martial / non-caster classes, in the form of extraordinary or supernatural stances, battle auras, manifestations of luck, and so forth.

Combat spells: These spells require no daily resources at all to use and can be used without limit, other than their mana costs (see below). However, these spells can only be used in combat situations.

Mana: At the start of each battle, this starts at 0. The mana pool is something shared by all allies in a party. Each member can contribute to it, and each time a member uses combat spells, he depletes the pool for everyone. In order to use a combat spell, the pool must have at least as much mana as the spell's level, which it then depletes from the pool. The pool can accumulate a maximum number of points equal to the average party level, any points gained past this are wasted. Generally, any standard or full round action adds to the pool. Attacks in particular are unique in that they would add to the pool per successful attack. The system is basically intended to be set up such that non-casters are the best at pumping points into the pool, ensuring their importance to a balanced party (as does the shared aspect make too many casters a burden). Casters may get at will weak magical effects on par with cantrips or a bit stronger as a means of helping to build up the pool. Likewise, non-casters may get very few options to use mana themselves, but in general casters are meant to get the most bang out of spending the mana, just as non-casters will be the best at earning it. Another side benefit could be that while 2H users do the most damage, TWF and other "many attacks" builds are better at replenishing mana, as damage per hit would not matter for those purposes.


The casting system is not intended to perfectly balance casters vs. non-casters, so much as to narrow the gap to an acceptable level and make the whole “casters can nova; non-casters rock all day” actually be truth in advertising. When a wizard can get all-day flight and the fighter can't, that completely and utterly breaks that already fragile spot-light divide. It's also meant to help solve the 15 min. adventuring day, and make having martial classes in a party be more useful, and cause the “party of wizards and clerics is optimal” thing to die in a fire.


So, retool the entire casting system along those lines; grant 3E Vow of Poverty-like boons to all characters for free based on level and make magic items less “mandatory crutches” and more “cool extra expendable toys to give anyone some added nova ability or fun options”; buff the non-casters and get over the “hold mundanes to expectations of realism” crap to give them powerful Su / quasi-magical innate abilities...

...and you're well on your way to a great rules system, I think. What do you think?
 

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Infiniti2000

First Post
I really dislike the concept of the party mana pool. It is a deal-breaker for me. I can't even start to get past this point to even consider your other points. Sorry.
 


StreamOfTheSky

Adventurer
I really dislike the concept of the party mana pool. It is a deal-breaker for me. I can't even start to get past this point to even consider your other points. Sorry.

Without it being shared, everything else falls apart. I don't want complete homogeneity between classes all having roughly equivalent daily/encounter/at-will/utility abilities, so the most logical way to preserve some balance and still have some classes with the big guns to me would be the mana pool shared burden deal.
 

mkill

Adventurer
Nerf utility magic that can replace skills: 4E
Separate utility spell slots: 4E
At-will combat casting: 4E
(bit of a pattern here)

Ok, so the party mana pool is not 4E, but I wonder how you want to explain that without completely overhauling how magic works in all D&D game worlds.

But let's ask the Forgotten Realms fans if they'd be okay with a cataclysmic event that changes all magic. Surely that would be hugely popular in the fanbase

/sarcasm
 

StreamOfTheSky

Adventurer
- Anyone who's experienced with 3E spellcasting recognizes the ability of spells to completely obsolete mundanes as one of the single greatest problems that needs to be addressed. Whether 4E did it or not (I thought they left them in, but turned them into rituals that take time and money to use, but anyone could get?), it's frequently a subject for fixing 3E.

- Conflating my idea for utility spells completely with 4E is a bit unfair. You have specific slots per day for them, but you cast them spontaneously rather than a fixed 1/day for each of them, and they occupy the same reserve of known spells for the day as your combat spells, with the flexibility to adjust how many of each you want on a given day as you see fit.

- 3E did have optional magic recharge rules in UA and refresh mechanics for encounter powers in Tome of Battle. The combat spells may be potentially unlimited use, but the charge up requirement makes them closer to ToB style encounter powers than true at-wills.

And yes, mana pool would require a complete overhaul of how magic works and is explained. A caster would have limited ability to create magical effects, but that ability would be amplified in tense situations, feeding off the energy of himself and his allies' vigor. It's different for sure, don't know why it's any sillier than reading a bunch of long words from a book to make the magic happen...

Kinda checked out of 4E before I even looked at their forgotten realms, and...I never at all liked it aside from being an interesting backdrop for Minsc and Boo in the first place. So don't know enough about that to even comment. But why would the change to how magic works be tied to a setting? That sounds like a bad idea. Should be how magic works in any game. And with this system, casters STILL have those out of combat slots, just fewer. In combat, they're still slinging spells, just less frequently per round in exchange for not "running out" for an entire combat, instead they "run out" for brief periods in any combat. Seems similar enough to me to how things work to look superficially alright and not wreck too much of the fluff and stories.
Is this "cataclysm" in FR how 4E explained the changes from 1E-3E to their magic system?
 

Infiniti2000

First Post
I don't want complete homogeneity between classes all having roughly equivalent daily/encounter/at-will/utility abilities...
Let me paraphrase you to make sure I understand: "I don't want classes to balanced with each other." If this is accurate, then, again, this is a deal-breaker. We would have nothing further to say on the subject and your system would therefore likely never see the light of day (because I'm positive a vast majority of people would agree with me). If it's not accurate, Lucy, you've got some 'splainin to do! :)
 

Tilenas

Explorer
I really dislike the concept of the party mana pool. It is a deal-breaker for me. I can't even start to get past this point to even consider your other points. Sorry.

Give that man a break, will you? For me, it's way too gamist BUT it's not like it'll be canon on Wednesday, and he points out major problems in casting mechanic and party balance. Try to see where he's coming from and then draw your own conclusions from it. :)
 

Janaxstrus

First Post
Let me paraphrase you to make sure I understand: "I don't want classes to balanced with each other." If this is accurate, then, again, this is a deal-breaker. We would have nothing further to say on the subject and your system would therefore likely never see the light of day (because I'm positive a vast majority of people would agree with me). If it's not accurate, Lucy, you've got some 'splainin to do! :)

If the "complete parity between the classes" was working, 5e wouldn't be in the process of being made. If that is what the "vast majority" wanted, Paizo wouldn't be making money hand over fist on 3e/PF stuff.

Some of us want our fighters fighting, our wizards magicing and the clerics healing etc etc. When the classes weren't perfectly balanced against one another at every level, D&D was king...for how many years?

I don't want my fighters doing magic-that-isn't-magic. I want my wizards casting and forgetting the spells. I don't want them mixing the two and all that is different is the name.
 

GreyICE

Banned
Banned
Yes, DnD was king... when its competition was FATAL.

AD&D was indeed the undisputed ruler of the PnP RPG roost, but there just wasn't any legitimate competition during those times. So it was like beating yourself at chess. YAY! I WIN AGAIN! But it doesn't really say much about your chess playing ability.

3E was losing ground from virtually its introduction, to the big players of 90s RPGs, White Wolf. White Wolf, with Vampire, Werewolf, and a host of less popular systems. People often forget the OGL was WotC's attempt to regain much of the ground lost to other systems, by giving them a home under the WotC umbrella.

Pathfinder has only recently started to beat 4E sales, as 4E is in its twilight, and it has no DDI model for ongoing money making (something WotC has certainly appreciated, as DDI has continued to get updates right up to the announcement of Next, and no one really questions its inclusion in Next).

Pazio fans are certainly arrogant and loud, but a loud cultish fanbase doesn't mean that it's somehow 'beating' D&D.

At the end of the day WotC answers to one company, Hasbro, and Hasbro is what defines whether D&D is doing well. Pathfinder almost certainly played very little part in that decision, the cold fact of the matter is Hasbro just doesn't care.
 

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