Ideas for a simpler D&D *mostly about skills*

[rbingham2000]

I've thought at length about just giving PCs the standard equipment that every adventurer would need (backpack, bedroll, flint and steel, one day's rations, sack, several torches and waterskin) as a kind of package deal, instead of handing the players X amount of GP and making them go and buy every single *%$&^@ item that their newly-created characters might need.

Also, certain classes would also get an item related to their class (like the holy symbol for clerics and druids, instruments or story scrolls for bards, thieves' tools for rogues, spellbooks for wizards).

Finally, each class gets their choice of weapons and armor, with restrictions based on the character's class. The warrior classes, for example, would get three simple or martial weapons, their choice of light or medium armor, and any shield except the tower shield.

Ranged weapons that are chosen come with a quiver or case of normal arrows or bolts. If you want to use special ammunition such as silvered arrows, you'll have to find and buy them in-game.

 

[fuindordm]

This skill system looks nice and tight, very well thought out! A couple of comments/ideas...

I have a new idea for handling skills

Acrobatics (Scale Walls, Tumble, Balance) dex

It doesn't seem necessary to separate scale walls from climb.

Influence (Intimidate, Diplomacy, Bluff) cha

I actually quite like the fact that 3E/3.5E has differentiated these kinds of
interactions. I'd like to see a way to preserve the difference somehow. Maybe
just separating Bluff out into its own skill would be enough, since that one has
a couple of other specific uses such as feinting and creating a diversion to hide
that are very good for rogues.

Handle Animal (Ride) wis?

I would separate Handle Animal and Ride (Cha and Dex, repectively), since Ride
has so many combat-oriented uses and the two obvious depend on different stats.
Handle animal could be made more attractive by folding in the Animal Empathy
special ability.

Finally, why no Use Magic Device? I think this skill is really cool and a great way for
characters without spells to still have some affinity with magic.

You also missed Sense Motive, and Disguise, more very useful skills that I think really
need to be on their own (although Disguise might be rolled into Bluff).

All classes receive automatic Skill Focus feats (+3) in appropiate class skills but can choose to learn any skill on the list.

This is a really elegant idea.

What's still missing is a way for characters to specialize in one skill, so I would still
make it an unnamed bonus (that way they can still boost a skill by taking a feat).
I would also change skill focus back to a +2, since so many skills are now 2 or 3 skills
folded into one, and scrap all the +2/+2 feats from the simplified game.

So here's the skill list that makes sense to me (sorted by dependent stat)

Alertness (Spot, Search, Listen), wis
Survival, wis
Heal, wis
Sense Motive, wis
Athletics (Climb, Swim, Jump) str
Sneak (Hide, Move Silently) dex
Acrobatics (Tumble, Balance) dex
Sleight of Hand, dex
Ride dex
Influence (Intimidate, Diplomacy) cha
Bluff cha
Handle Animal cha
Use Magic Device cha
Disguise cha
Tricks and Traps (Open Locks, Disable Device, Craft complex devices), int
Decipher Script, int
Spellcraft, int
Knowledge, int

I think this list also allows for more variety among rogues--the basic thief type gets Alertness, Sneak, Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Tricks&Traps, and Bluff, but I can easily imagine swapping Sleight of Hand for Athletics and T&T for Influence to make a swashbuckler or Acrobatics and Bluff for UMD and Decipher Script for more an adventuring arcane scholar.

The mechanic you've come up with is simple and sweet, though. You can make a unique-feeling character in seconds without agonizing over where to put every last skill point, and I really like that.

Following the thread with interest.

--Ben

 

[Grayhawk]

Thanks to all of you for your thoughts and input so far.

Now, do any of you have any specific thoughts on my skills idea from post #8?

Edit: fuindordm, I hadn't seen your post when writing this one - I'll address it below.

 

[Grayhawk]

The mechanic you've come up with is simple and sweet, though. You can make a unique-feeling character in seconds without agonizing over where to put every last skill point, and I really like that.

Thanks a lot!

And thanks for taking the time to run through my skill list - you're right, there were some holes.

But I think I'll remove the feinting and diversion aspects from Bluff, so it can be kept in the Influence group. (I believe that feinting should be an opposed attack roll and the 'diversion to hide' will either have to go or be handled differently.)

It's true that the class specific bonus to skills shouldn't be a Skill Focus feat, it should propably just be called a 'class bonus'.

I would also change skill focus back to a +2, since so many skills are now 2 or 3 skills
folded into one, and scrap all the +2/+2 feats from the simplified game.

I agree.

Again, thanks for your input!

 

[spider_minion]

Wow, there are a lot of really good ideas in this thread!

I like the idea of bonus languages and profession skills based on intelligence. I could see a "Background" section on a character sheet with that information. The skill focus would really tie the system together.

I also like the starting gear.

Here's my take on how it could be:

Characters choose a number of skills they are proficient in, equal to half the class's first level base skill points. A character with a 15+ int knows an extra skill, a 19+ int two extra skills, and a 6 or less int one less skill. Character who multiclass into a class with more skills than their original learn one more skill (but only once).

Checks for class skills are level + stat. Cross-class skills are 1/2 level + stat. Some class skills automatically get the benefit of skill focus.

The skill list:
Acrobatics (Balance, Tumble, Escape Artist)
Athletics (Climb, Swim, Jump)
Awareness (Spot, Listen, Search)
Deception (Bluff, Disguise, Forgery)
Decipher Script
Handle Animal (Handle Animal, Ride)
Heal
Influence (Diplomacy, Gather Information, Perform)
Intimidate
Item Lore (Appraise, Use Magic Device)
Knowledge (categoires: local, history, nobility, religion, other)
Legerdemain (Use Rope, Sleight of Hand)
Mechanics (Disable Device, Open Locks, K/Engineering)
Profession (Craft, Profession)
Sense Motive
Spellcraft (Spellcraft, K/Arcana, K/Planes, Concentration)
Stealth (Hide, Move Silently)
Survival (Survival, K/Nature, K/Geography, K/Dungeoneering)

 

[fuindordm]

Wow, there are a lot of really good ideas in this thread!
Characters choose a number of skills they are proficient in, equal to half the class's first level base skill points. A character with a 15+ int knows an extra skill, a 19+ int two extra skills, and a 6 or less int one less skill. Character who multiclass into a class with more skills than their original learn one more skill (but only once).

Yeah, I was wondering myself what to do about multiclassing. I think it would
be easier keep it as is, though. When you pick up a new class, you pick a new
set of skills. The 'focus' bonus can't be applied more than once, but if you pick
the same skill for both classes then your bonus is character level + 3. Otherwise it's
based off class level +3.

Comments on the skill list are below.

Checks for class skills are level + stat. Cross-class skills are 1/2 level + stat. Some class skills automatically get the benefit of skill focus.

The skill list:
Acrobatics (Balance, Tumble, Escape Artist) (Dex)
Athletics (Climb, Swim, Jump) (Str)
Awareness (Spot, Listen, Search) (Wis)

These three are great.

Deception (Bluff, Disguise, Forgery) (Cha or Int?)
Decipher Script (Int?)

I'd like to take a moment to call out decipher script as an oddity. As written it allows players to read a language they don't know! This is a really weird, semi-magical effect. IMC I define this skill as follows:
1) It allows the character to create and attempt to decipher mundane codes and
ciphers, provided that the coded message is based on a language they know.
2) It allows the character to try and read a text written in an unknown language
provided it is closely related to one that they know (generally an older version of
a modern language, e.g. latin/italian.)

IRL, scholars that are used to handling ancient manuscripts also become skilled at detecting forgeries of these manuscripts, and by extension creating them. One of the most famous letters of pope Clement is still controversial, for example; it was discovered by an eminent scholar and generally accepted as a real document after peer review, but now some people think that it was in fact a forgery created by that same scholar. The reason? The letter is "too perfect"; if you create a frequency distribution of Clement's vocabulary in the contested letter, it matches exactly the frequency distribution that you get when you compile all his other known letters. If the letter were forged by an expert on Clement, that is what you would expect; if it were organic, on the other hand, then you would expect a distribution consistent with Clement's style but not quite so "dead-on".

That's a long story to justify the following modification:

Acting (Bluff, Disguise, some Perform skills) (Cha)
Spycraft (Decipher Script, Forgery) (Int)

Handle Animal (Handle Animal, Ride) (Cha/Dex)

This one is still a little funny in that it appears to be based on two stats, but I think you could make a case for putting both on Cha (since controlling a mount effectively in combat is more a matter of communication than quick reflexes)

Heal
Influence (Diplomacy, Gather Information, Perform)
Intimidate

I think any kind of musical performance should be under Profession; any kind of performance art under Acting (see above). Intimidate and Diplomacy are both fundamentally about making a deal with an NPC and can be safely folded together.
I forgot about Gather Information, though.

Influence (Diplomacy, Intimidate) (Cha)

What do you think of this skill?

Streetwise (Gather Information, Knowledge: Local, Appraise)

Item Lore (Appraise, Use Magic Device)

Use Magic Device is so useful on its own it shouldn't be folded in with other skills, I think.

Knowledge (categoires: local, history, nobility, religion, other)
Legerdemain (Use Rope, Sleight of Hand)

What about Sage (All Knowledge skills that aren't already covered by other
skills)?

Use Rope is another funny, funny skill that probably wouldn't exist at all if it weren't for escape artist. I really don't know where to put it myself.

Mechanics (Disable Device, Open Locks, K/Engineering)
Profession (Craft, Profession)
Sense Motive
Spellcraft (Spellcraft, K/Arcana, K/Planes, Concentration)
Stealth (Hide, Move Silently)
Survival (Survival, K/Nature, K/Geography, K/Dungeoneering)

This puts us at 18 skills:

Str: Athletics
Dex: Acrobatics, Stealth, Legerdemain, Mechanics
Con: none
Int: Spellcraft, Knowledge, Spycraft, Craft
Wis: Heal, Sense Motive, Survival, Awareness
Cha: Acting, Handle Animal, Use Magic Device, Influence, Streetwise

It's interesting that Cha ends up with the most associated skills, eh?

 

[fuindordm]

Thinking more about the skill list and associated feats, consolidating rules again:

A PC gets 1+Int bonus languages and 1+Int bonus free Craft, Knowledge, or Profession skills in addition to their class skills. Unlike class skills, these three skills do not get a +3 bonus; their rank is simply the PC's character level. These skills are important, however, because they can add a +2 synergy bonus to the player's skill rolls whenever they're doing something closely related to their background as defined by these skills.

A PC also gets from 2 to 6 "adventuring skills" chosen from the following list, according to their class. A PC may choose any skill from the list, but if they choose one of the skills favored by their class they get a +3 bonus to that skill.

Fighters, Clerics, and Wizards get 2 skills.
Barbarians, Druids, Monks, Paladins, and Sorcerers get 3 skills.
Rangers and Bards get 4 skills.
Rogues get 6 skills.

Humans get an additional skill. Anyone may choose an additional skill from the list by expending a feat.

With the DM's approval, a player may pick out two applications of broad skills in lieu of a single adventuring skill. For example, a rogue who only has one skill left to pick and can't decide between acrobatics and athletics could designate Jump and Tumble as two skill applications equivalent to a single, more general skill. The rogue will be treated as having (level + 3) ranks when jumping and tumbling, but is considered untrained (no ranks at all) for balancing, escaping bonds, climbing, and swimming.

*Acrobatics (Balance, Escape Artist, Tumble): DEX, class skill for Bard, Fighter, Monk, Ranger, Rogue
*Acting (Bluff, Disguise, some kinds of performance): CHA, class skill for Bard, Rogue
*Athletics (Climb, Jump, Swim): STR, class skill for Barbarian, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Ranger, Rogue
*Awareness (Listen, Search, Spot): WIS, class skill for Barbarian, Bard, Monk, Ranger, Rogue
Craft: INT, class skill for no one
Handle Animals (+ Ride): CHA, class skill for Druid, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger
Heal: WIS, class skill for Clerics, Druids, Fighters, Monks, Paladins, Rangers
*Influence (Diplomacy, Intimidate): CHA, class skill for Bards, Clerics, Paladins, Rogues, Sorcerers
*Intuition (Sense Motive): WIS, class skill for Bards, Clerics, Paladins, Rogues
Knowledge: INT, all categories are class skills for Bards and Wizards. KS: Religion is a class skill for Clerics and Paladins.
Mechanics (Disable Device, Open Locks): DEX, class skill for Rogues
Profession: WIS, Musician is a class skill for Bards
Spellcraft (+ Knowledge: Arcana): INT, class skill for Bards, Druids, Clerics, Sorcerers, Wizards, and any other spellcasting
Spycraft (Decipher Script, Forgery): INT, class skill for Bards, Rogues, Wizards
*Stealth (Hide, Move Silently): DEX, class skill for Barbarians, Bards, Monks, Rangers, Rogues
*Streetwise (Gather Info, Knowledge: Local): CHA, class skill for Bards and Rogues
Survival (+ Intuit Direction, Knowledge: Nature): WIS, class skill for Barbarians, Druids, Rangers, Rogues.
Thievery (Sleight of Hand, Appraise): DEX, class skill for Rogues
Use Magic Device: CHA, class skill for Sorcerers

*Denotes a skill, or an application of a skill, that can be used untrained.

Craft, Knowledge, and Profession must be associated with a reasonably specific category, but may be taken multiple times. Here are some examples of some categories that PCs might be interested in. These three skills, and only these three skills, can grant a +2 synergy bonus to appropriate applications of the other skills, e.g. a PC with Craft: Locksmith gets +2 to their rolls to open locks.

Craft: Alchemy, Clockwork, Engineering, Herbalism, Locksmith, Shipwright, Smithing, Tailor, Trapmaking. This skill allows you to build and appraise items in your field of expertise, perhaps even recognizing magical items.

Knowledge: Geography (includes mysterious places), History (includes nobility and current affairs), Religion (includes undead and planar cosmology), Monster Lore, Natural Philosophy. You may also take Nature, Arcana, and Local as categories even though these are already subsumed under the adventuring skills listed above; doing so will grant a synergy bonus to the adventuring applications if you have taken those skills. Otherwise they grant you some theoretical, but not practical knowledge. (For example, a fighter with Knowledge: Nature might be able to recognize an edible plant if he saw it, but wouldn't be able able to make a skill roll to find enough of them to feed the party)..

Profession: Beggar, Courtier, Farmer, Fence, Guardsman, Merchant, Musician, Street Urchin, Sailor, Thief, Valet. The player can discuss with the GM beforehand what bonuses a given profession might provide. Guardsman might give +2 to Awareness rolls while the PC is on night watch, for example, and Sailor might give +2 to checks for keeping one's balance and using rope.

Some feats associated with the "adventuring skills"

Cross-training: pick one additional skill.

Skill focus: gives a +2 bonus to one skill (only once per skill)

Skill specialization: gives a +4 bonus to one specific application of an adventuring skill. Examples: running long jump (Athletics), spell research (Spellcraft), Bribery (Influence), ropewalking (Balance). The player is free to come up with their own ideas here, subject to DM approval. If the DM judges the application to be too general, they may allow it but reduce the bonus to +3.

 

[spider_minion]

Fuindordm, that's a really solid skill system.

I think acting, streetwise, and spycraft make a lot more sense. Appriase should probably be included as part of streetwise. Personally, I'd make Handle Animal a wisdom skill. Initmidate and diplomacy seem like an odd match, since most classes tend to use one or the other. But by barring it to fighters and barbarians, it works.

Now that bit about choosing two broad skills and being proficient in them seems a little unnecessary. I think it would be harder to denote on a character sheet, and introduces the adventuring skill / braod skill terminology. With the cross-training feat, its possible for players to get all the skills they want.

Plus I like forcing people to make hard decisions.

I'm planning on using this system in my new campaign. I'll try to post the players' feedback sometime Saturday.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Some of these efforts to simplify the system seem to me to be making it more complex. But I think fuindordm approach to skills seems pretty good.

 

[fuindordm]

Thanks, guys. I think it's really Grayhawk's system, though, the idea just inspired me to think about how it would operate in detail.

The vocabulary that I used is definitely inconsistent. Sorry!

Diamonddew's point about avoiding additional complexity is well taken. The skill splitting idea, and thinking about what skills can be used untrained, forces me to talk about "skill applications" (essentially meaning the old D&D skills).

Influence = Diplomacy + Intimidate:

I feel comfortable lumping these together because in practice they are both used to attempt to get an NPC to do something for you. I read this article recently by Rich Burlew:

http://www.giantitp.com/Func0010.html

and it influenced my thinking.

Appraise is tough b/c it gives you a ballpark estimate on the value of *anything*. It makes a lot of sense for thieves, fences and merchants to have this skill, but not much for anyone else. I guess it wouldn't hurt to have it in streetwise, but it doesn't feel quite right there either. On the other hand, it's not useful enough to make it on its own as a skill.

--Ben