D&D 4E If 4e went in this direction...

[Prestidigitalis]

The "add layer" method could even shake the base foundation of 4e. While it might mean extra work and maybe not worthwile (I'm just brainstorming), you could design the game by layers. So you could have role and powersource layers (ie: you put "defender" layer on top of "martial" layer, and you get a different effect than if you put "defender" layer on top of "divine" layer). Dunno if it would work, but sounds intriguing

I like the concept too. It's also a way to allow an extra power-up for campaigns where it's appropriate, without the clunkiness of the gestalt concept.

 

[triqui]

Giving greater flexibility for mixing powers, while allowing individual balance in said powers and adding more viable choices (making MCing feel more relevant than just stealing a PP as is normally done). It just seems like such a good idea.

Now you mention it...

Paragon Paths themselves could have been implemented like this. With the added adventage of not needing to be "paragon", just path, so you can start building your character concept from the get-go instead of delaying 11 levels. The more I think about this "layer concept", the better it is.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Paragon Paths themselves could have been implemented like this. With the added adventage of not needing to be "paragon", just path, so you can start building your character concept from the get-go instead of delaying 11 levels.

For many characters, the coolest features or powers they will ever acquire in the course of an adventuring career comes from the paragon path -- but most characters never get that far, or expire shortly after reaching it.

 

[triqui]

For many characters, the coolest features or powers they will ever acquire in the course of an adventuring career comes from the paragon path -- but most characters never get that far, or expire shortly after reaching it.

Yep. Even worse, some characters are *defined* by it's paragon path. Let's say I want to play a wizard themed around blood magic. Until lvl 11, my character is completelly a blur. Even some actually follow different paths until they hit the "right level". Like if I want to build some kind of Polearm Gamble build. I have seen guides that go "From lvl 1 to 10, use a two handed sword. At level 11, get polearm gamble and a glaive". While this is extreme, it serves to show how the "theme feeling" that paragon paths were supposed to give, came too late. I'm going to be a swashbuckler that actually got some swashbuckling mechanic from lvl 11 to lvl 14 or so, before we finish that campaign (not all of them end at lvl 20 or 30, mind you. Heroic is by far the most played, and flavorless, tier). Themes would make more sense for a great bunch of them

 

[Matt James]

The more and more I analyzed it (started last August), the more I have come to believe this would be a great direction for the game. It wasn't until recently, in light of some of the newer content, that I wanted to put anything out there. I think it's awesome that people see the same value that I see and can appreciate the implications of this type of design. I will try to follow my article up by zeroing in on one of the sub-topics and talk about how to implement this alternate way of advancing a character. I don't suspect this will be something many people adapt to, but for those not afraid to tackle it, it might be a good way to move forward.

Thanks for all the great comments. I am glad I was able to adequately communicate my line of thinking in a way that a wider audience could understand it. Sometimes the message gets lost.

 

[Matt James]

Yep. Even worse, some characters are *defined* by it's paragon path.

This isn't a horrible thing necessarily, but I absolutely understand what your point is. Characters should always be somewhat defined by their Class>Paragon Path>Epic Destiny, but not in a way that overwrites all of the nuances (re: traits) that make the character (God, I hope that made sense).

Continuing on the premise and thesis of my article, Paragon Paths too could have been a layer added on top of a base character concept. Again, the strengths of this type of design can be shown in a number of ways. Most importantly, though, I feel it would provide less of a burden on players as new content is presented.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

Instead of implementing vampires as a class WotC should have used themes.

Not a bad idea but since themes are (currently) just powers, the downfall would be that you'd lose all of the vampiric aspects that are tied into the class features. I suppose you could bring in stuff like resistance to necrotic and vulnerability to sunlight in with a bloodline feat but if you stuck strictly to the way themes are currently, I think you'd be missing lots of the feel of a vampire.

Same for revenant. Revanant isn't a proper race. It's an undead theme that should have been applied to any other race.

But is the revenant concept strong enough to make 18 unique powers from the heroic tier to the epic tier that are tied to the revenant theme?

 

[Matt James]

You could alter the current design of themes to integrate these features. It would be a much less convoluted implementation. I plan to put up an example sometime soon. Hopefully that will provide a better idea of how it would work.

 

[ggroy]

Hmmm ... Eliminating races, classes, paragon paths, epic destinies, feats, multiclassing/hybrid classes, etc ... and universally replacing them all with themes.

 

[triqui]

This isn't a horrible thing necessarily, but I absolutely understand what your point is. Characters should always be somewhat defined by their Class>Paragon Path>Epic Destiny, but not in a way that overwrites all of the nuances (re: traits) that make the character (God, I hope that made sense).

I don't have a problem with PP being part of what defines your character. And in some cases, it makes a lot of sense that those paths are "paragon" (ie: stormwarden. A ranger with storm powers clearly shouts "paragon"). In other cases, it is not. A swashbuckling theme that could be selected from lvl 1 could help a lot to define a El Zorro character, beyond "i got superior weapon: Rapier". That does not mean some of those should be defined in paragon paths (such as swashbuckling theme+Dread Pirate PP or swashbuckling them+Master Duelist PP for example).

But the problem is that some characters are completelly flavorless until they hit PP. Blood Mage come to mind.