D&D 4E If 5e Had Evolved from 4e...

[Ferghis]

A lot of good ideas and discussion in this thread. I can't xp all of them due to a need to spread love.

My main concern is to revitalize the other two pillars of the game. I agree with everyone that the math has to be flattened out and items made special. I also agree that there need to be fewer pointless classes and options. But what I would like is this:

1. Race defines your social pillar. Race is one of the most identifying characteristics, from a social perspective, so this makes a lot of sense to me. As you level up, more options are made available, and these NEVER compete with combat options.

2. Background defines your exploration pillar, since it defines what other skills you have learned from your experiences before adventuring. As you level up, more options are made available, and these NEVER compete with combat options.

3. Theme defines your subclass OR your multiclass. If you select the fighter class you gain the fighter's core benefits that we want all fighters to have (proficiencies, weapon specialization benefits, HP, surges, and so on), but selecting your theme defines the more specific ways in which you are a fighter: it can make you a defender or a slayer or a paladin or a swordmage or a ranger. Or, it can help you multiclass by picking up a subclass (and some of the specialized benefits of) of other classes. Themes, as much as possible, should fit into any class. So the cleric can pick the defender theme to become a melee cleric, or the wizard can pick the two-handed weapon theme to fight a balrog, or a thief can pick a slayer theme to become an assassin. In other words, you can either be really good at one thing (by picking a theme that wholly fits your class, like the fighter-defender) or you can dabble in two things (by picking a theme that is traditionally associated with another class, like the fighter-mage or swordmage). Although I like this idea a lot, I must admit that it would take a lot of work to make it work right.

Upon seeing other systems, what I now want incorporated:

1. 13th Age style skill system, basically a set number of points to be invested in backgrounds ala "Torturer", "Thief", or "Blacksmith". Whenever a skill is needed that's pertinent to a character's background, they roll with the background modifier, or else a straight ability score. It increases with level. Why bother with meticulously-defined skills when you can have this? Granted, there is a modicum of DM fiat, but no more, I believe, than when DMs adjudicate whether or not certain skills can be used in skill challenges.

I like this mechanism a lot in other games. I love it for Amber Diceless RPG. But it won't provide a mechanic I can keep adding to with the different parts I discussed above. So I don't like it much for D&D.

 

[Herschel]

Flatten the math, flatten the bonuses, add more out-of-combat chaos/whimsy like older edition modules.

 

[Ferghis]

1. Race defines your social pillar. Race is one of the most identifying characteristics, from a social perspective, so this makes a lot of sense to me. As you level up, more options are made available, and these NEVER compete with combat options.

2. Background defines your exploration pillar, since it defines what other skills you have learned from your experiences before adventuring. As you level up, more options are made available, and these NEVER compete with combat options.

On second thought, I'd be fine having the exploration AND social pillars BOTH options come from these sources. In the sense that both give both options as the character rises in level.

 

[Nichwee]

Ferghis - like the basics of your idea, but how does leveling mean you gain in a Background?
It is a school of things you did before adventuring, I don't see how adventuring would level up your Background skills/abilities.

Take a classic example - Luke Skywalker (aka Farmboy-turned-hero)
Backgrounds = Orphan, Farmer, Speedster Enthusiast
Hero = Pilot, Jedi
Now I could see the Pilot part of his heroics could be enough to develop up some of his Speedster Enthusiast traits, but any Farmer skills/abilities are more likely to have withered than been developed - so I don't think Backgrounds really lend themselves to big bonus gains in later levels UNLESS they are taken at a cost of normal bonuses (to represent sticking to your roots more than is typically the case - they are called your Background for a reason imo).

As I said I like the idea you have given, I would just like to hear your rationale for how adventuring levels up Background traits?

Racial traits leveling I can see a bit more - a stronger person, constantly pushing themselves, unlocks more of the potential of their ancestry/genome (ala Goku).

But part of the reason I like Backgrounds being things you get at level 1 only is that they then refine your "Past" not dictate your progression. The other side effect of leveling Backgrounds would be peeps often choosing a Background if it gives access to a really nice ability at later levels - this is bad enough with some of the SoW Backgrounds atm, and I think it would increase the trend if Backgrounds have more options.

 

[Pickles JG]

If 5e Had Evolved from 4e...
I don't accept the premise of the thread. 5E is evolving from 4E...and 3E, and 2E, and 1E, and BD&D, and...

To say otherwise is simply wrong.

But, there are some great ideas in this thread that I think WotC would find beneficial to look at.

No more than people evolved from Gorillas. They have common ancestors & similar evolutionary pressures (more like Wolves & Tasmanian Wolves) but 4e seems to be the Neanderthal of RPGs.

 

[Ferghis]

Ferghis - like the basics of your idea, but how does leveling mean you gain in a Background?
It is a school of things you did before adventuring, I don't see how adventuring would level up your Background skills/abilities.

Take a classic example - Luke Skywalker (aka Farmboy-turned-hero)
Backgrounds = Orphan, Farmer, Speedster Enthusiast
Hero = Pilot, Jedi
Now I could see the Pilot part of his heroics could be enough to develop up some of his Speedster Enthusiast traits, but any Farmer skills/abilities are more likely to have withered than been developed - so I don't think Backgrounds really lend themselves to big bonus gains in later levels UNLESS they are taken at a cost of normal bonuses (to represent sticking to your roots more than is typically the case - they are called your Background for a reason imo).

I fear you answered your own question, at least in part. Simplifying a lot, say that the background provided 3 skills: streetwise, nature and piloting. As you level up, these skills could be developed or used as prerequisites for skill powers, in a manner similar to 4e's skill powers. So maybe he could gain training in insight because he was good at sizing up someone as an orphan, or be able to navigate well in the wild thanks to his background in the boonies, or he could get a special trick to use while piloting. He wouldn't become more of an orphan or farmer or speedster enthusiast, but he could develop the benefits from these interests and experiences.

In brief, I see three separate tracks of benefits as you level up: one dictated by your class, a second one dictated by your theme/subclass/multiclass (whatever you want to call it), and a third one in which you can pick a new benefit from your race or background.

But part of the reason I like Backgrounds being things you get at level 1 only is that they then refine your "Past" not dictate your progression. The other side effect of leveling Backgrounds would be peeps often choosing a Background if it gives access to a really nice ability at later levels - this is bad enough with some of the SoW Backgrounds atm, and I think it would increase the trend if Backgrounds have more options.

I agree that getting "background" benefits only at level 1 and never (or rarely) improving them sounds more coherent and realistic, but I think it's less fun. I think it's important that characters develop the other two pillars of their class, and this is an easy way to get two different sources to mine for that development. I don't want to use class or theme as a potential source for exploration and social pillars because that means that you'll never have the fighter diplomat or the nobleman thief. Allowing a character to select benefits from their background in addition to your race as you level up means that there can be two very different halfling rogues.

 

[Lwaxy]

No more than people evolved from Gorillas. They have common ancestors & similar evolutionary pressures (more like Wolves & Tasmanian Wolves) but 4e seems to be the Neanderthal of RPGs.

And by now we all know that we have Neanderthal genes, too.

 

[Will Doyle]

I've been pondering on this as well recently. Personally I don't see 5E as an evolution of 4E as a system, more of a consolidation of D&D as a brand (and that's honestly not a dig - I'm onboard with that).

For me at least, 4E brought some wonderful things to the table in terms of heroic RPG design, and I'd love to see them evolved - just not as D&D. Some things I'd like to see from a "spiritual successor" (many cribbed from these own boards):

• Faster combat, perhaps zone-based not grid-based, but still taking place on a battlemap and featuring forced movement (just simplified).
• Powers grouped into power source, not class - with each having a good selection of powers for each role. Gives you less powers overall, with more sharing. More class or feat-based riders to common powers.
• Customisable power selection as standard (with kits provided as suggestions). e.g. my martial character can cherry-pick a variety of striker, defender and controller powers.
• I'd even be tempted to ditch class, and have players just pick "role", which gives them one of the key abilities like marking/extra damage/etc and access to certain feats. Theme/Paragon Path/Epic Destiny could cover class easily.
• Flat DCs for skill checks, with no half-level added to skills. Craft skills.
• No magic item bonuses, just more zany magic item powers. That said, I don't think you need *less* magic items. I've no problems with christmas trees
• Minor actions used only to sustain powers. As with 5E, handwave opening doors, getting out items, etc.
• Positive conditions as well as negative ones to better manage buffs.

 

[Pour]

@ Will Doyle

Count me in, man. Until my discussion with Ahnehnois , I didn't really know what I was getting at with this thread, but your input really seals the deal. I want 4e to break from D&D and become its own game, with its own IP and title.

It doesn't have to be D&D anymore, and not only does that liberate the design, I think it ends the edition wars. Would anyone, past edition fan or present 4e fan or future 5e fan, shed a single tear from the split? I think there would be general rejoicing.

It's eerily awesome how many of your suggestions I've been tinkering around with in my own hacking of the 4e system. I'd love to have everyone's input if I post them in another thread.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I've recently stumbled onto 13th Age

The blurbs remind me of D&D 4th EDition, and since Rob Heinsoo is involved, I figure that a lot of the ideas are carried over there. But I haven't had time to check out more about it.