I disagree semantically. I think DDN should actually be called D&D Old School or D&D Retro. Update 1E/2E and try and snatch some 3E fans back but have the two game systems. One for each edition isn't feasible (and two is a stretch itself) but this might be their best bet. They neeed to keep their 4E customers more than any because they're the ones currently buying their product. The best way to get a net gain is to acquire new customers without losing existing ones, the book treadmill not withstanding.
D&D 4E If 5e Had Evolved from 4e...
- Thread starter Pour
- Start date
I disagree semantically. I think DDN should actually be called D&D Old School or D&D Retro. Update 1E/2E and try and snatch some 3E fans back but have the two game systems. One for each edition isn't feasible (and two is a stretch itself) but this might be their best bet. They neeed to keep their 4E customers more than any because they're the ones currently buying their product. The best way to get a net gain is to acquire new customers without losing existing ones, the book treadmill not withstanding.
Will Doyle
Explorer
Thanks, Pour. I'd be interested to see them if you do!
Nemesis Destiny
Adventurer
"If 5e Had Evolved from 4e..."
...Then I might actually be interested in it. All digs aside, there are some excellent ideas in this thread for something that more directly descends from 4e as an ancestor. I've seen the ideas come up again and again in threads like this.
Everybody wants to perfect the math, and perhaps flatten it a little, but to focus on that element of 4e in an evolution of the system sells it short IMO.
The areas I see coming up again and again that would make a 4.5e really, truly shine, are things like decoupling role from class - that is to say that every class should have access to powers that can put them in any of the roles.
This is tightly coupled with the idea of giving a class access to a list of powers based on power source rather than a list narrowly defined by class, especially because this leads to lots of needless duplication.
The idea that feats should not contribute plusses to the math is another. I agree with the idea that a feat should be as interesting as a class feature. Perhaps such a feat could contain a bonus, as a class feature would, but could not only be a bonus. Skill-feats might be a good example of this; you could take a feat that let you gain a skill, and maybe get a bonus to some uses of it, but you could not get a feat that just gave a bonus to a skill you already have.
The idea of improving the skill selection of certain classes is another idea. Skills should come from each pillar of character creation. Some you get from background, some from theme, some from class, and some from race. This way you no longer end up with classes being forced to contain everything, and you don't get skill-gimped fighters any more that only have 3 skills, only one or two of which they'll even be good at.
Anyway, I just wanted to add that I love reading threads like this. Cheers
...Then I might actually be interested in it. All digs aside, there are some excellent ideas in this thread for something that more directly descends from 4e as an ancestor. I've seen the ideas come up again and again in threads like this.
Everybody wants to perfect the math, and perhaps flatten it a little, but to focus on that element of 4e in an evolution of the system sells it short IMO.
The areas I see coming up again and again that would make a 4.5e really, truly shine, are things like decoupling role from class - that is to say that every class should have access to powers that can put them in any of the roles.
This is tightly coupled with the idea of giving a class access to a list of powers based on power source rather than a list narrowly defined by class, especially because this leads to lots of needless duplication.
The idea that feats should not contribute plusses to the math is another. I agree with the idea that a feat should be as interesting as a class feature. Perhaps such a feat could contain a bonus, as a class feature would, but could not only be a bonus. Skill-feats might be a good example of this; you could take a feat that let you gain a skill, and maybe get a bonus to some uses of it, but you could not get a feat that just gave a bonus to a skill you already have.
The idea of improving the skill selection of certain classes is another idea. Skills should come from each pillar of character creation. Some you get from background, some from theme, some from class, and some from race. This way you no longer end up with classes being forced to contain everything, and you don't get skill-gimped fighters any more that only have 3 skills, only one or two of which they'll even be good at.
Anyway, I just wanted to add that I love reading threads like this. Cheers
dammitbiscuit
First Post
This is a great discussion, but the limitations of XP and the sequential nature of forum posts makes it less useful for organizing and discussing a large number of ideas at once. If, for instance, a bunch of us have a bunch of ideas about completely overhauling 4e (similar to what Pathfinder did for 3e, but with bolder, more aggressive improvements and changes) a better format might be useful.
Discussion forums, like this one, reward spamming. Posting replies to your thread bumps it to the top, and can be used to bury other people's replies. Reddit, on the other hand, (or something like it), promotes the most interesting content regardless of number of replies. Moderation is in the hands of the users, who can downvote argumentative, repeated posts and upvote what it's interesting.
That's essentially what I PM'd Pour a few days back, and he found the idea interesting, so I've created a subreddit for it and made him a mod. You can be a mod too, if you'd like - it's a group project!
Submit and discuss any ideas you have for evolving 4e, cleaning up its years of errata, or even just poaching our favorite stuff from 5e.
Upvote the interesting so it gets discussed (even if you disagree with it), then every week or two, vote on which of those submissions should be considered "core" for us.
Edit: I just want to make clear that those rules, and the current description of the community, is mostly there as placeholder simply so things can get started. Just like the fixes and evolutions for 4e mentioned in this thread or posted in that subreddit, the subreddit itself is up for discussion.
Discussion forums, like this one, reward spamming. Posting replies to your thread bumps it to the top, and can be used to bury other people's replies. Reddit, on the other hand, (or something like it), promotes the most interesting content regardless of number of replies. Moderation is in the hands of the users, who can downvote argumentative, repeated posts and upvote what it's interesting.
That's essentially what I PM'd Pour a few days back, and he found the idea interesting, so I've created a subreddit for it and made him a mod. You can be a mod too, if you'd like - it's a group project!
Submit and discuss any ideas you have for evolving 4e, cleaning up its years of errata, or even just poaching our favorite stuff from 5e.
Upvote the interesting so it gets discussed (even if you disagree with it), then every week or two, vote on which of those submissions should be considered "core" for us.
Edit: I just want to make clear that those rules, and the current description of the community, is mostly there as placeholder simply so things can get started. Just like the fixes and evolutions for 4e mentioned in this thread or posted in that subreddit, the subreddit itself is up for discussion.
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mr_powerchord
First Post
I spent almost a year thinkering with houserules to change what was annoying me with 4E. And most of them deal with the same things brought up in this threads.
- no half-level bonus,
- no abilities increases,
- no +n magic items,
- character gain a +1 modifier bonus to two abilities every even level
- character gain a feat every odd level,
- expertise feats grant a +1 bonus when they're gain (no +2 at parangon and +3 at epic),
- substract half-level to monsters defenses and attack bonus.
- powers are organised in 9 power degrees :
- degree 1 is level 1 encounter and daily and level 2 utility powers,
- degree 2 is level 3 encounter, level 5 daily, and level 6 utility powers,
- degree 3 is level 7 encounter, level 9 daily, and level 10 utility powers.
- PC gain a power every level :
- level 1, 2, 3 : one degree 1 power,
- level 4, 5, 6 : one degree 2 power,
- level 7, 8, 9 : one degree 3 power,
- they can choose either an encounter, daily or utility power.
- at-will class powers are gained at first level and throught feats later on.
- a round last 1 minute.
- using at-will CLASS powers, racial powers, class features powers, class encounter and daily powers, expend a free action.
- daily power that end at the end of an encounter have to be sustain by a free action instead.
- a daily power can be used a second time by burning a healing surge. It can be used again a third time by burning two healing surges, and so on.
- "Second wind" is an at-will power ; it takes a full-round action to use it. Taking a full-round action means you cannot use ANY action for a full round. Dwarven resilience let you use one standard action.
- "Recovery" is an at-will power that recharge all the encounter powers ; it takes a full-round action to use it, but you can still use a standard action.
- martial characters choose :
- a class, which grant them class traits (hp, healing surges, defenses, proficiencies, class features) and utility powers list,
- a fighting style, which decide what encounter & daily attack list they can pick their powers from.
ialdabaoth
First Post
Hello! Have any of you looked at http://open4e.wikia.com/wiki/Open_4E?
It's got... quite a bit of what all of you are talking about.
It's got... quite a bit of what all of you are talking about.
Nemesis Destiny
Adventurer
That link just redirects to enworld's main page. I had to copy-paste the text into the uri bar to make it work...
ialdabaoth
First Post
Neonchameleon
Legend
What I think they'd have done:
1: Let Vancian Magic in through the side door by allowing wizards to prepare dailies in encounter slots and vise-versa.
2: Reformed the skill system and added an extra mode or two of skill challenges (the race against time as opposed to failures)
3: Bonfire of the feats. Like that'll last.
4: Inherent bonusses as core - no more +X on most items. (A +1 sword being rare and valuable). Also get rid of Expertise.
5: Slight trim to the hit points to make fights faster.
6: Tidied up the limited duration conditions to only the EO(target's)NT, (Save Ends), and long term durations. Saving throws also affect EONT abilities.
7: Something with grabs.
In short just enough to make the game (a) improved arguably other than point i, and (b) just about compatable but only just about.
[MENTION=60419]dammitbiscuit[/MENTION], nice idea - but I'm not touching reddit with a 10 foot bargepole I'm afraid. Some other wiki for preference.
1: Let Vancian Magic in through the side door by allowing wizards to prepare dailies in encounter slots and vise-versa.
2: Reformed the skill system and added an extra mode or two of skill challenges (the race against time as opposed to failures)
3: Bonfire of the feats. Like that'll last.
4: Inherent bonusses as core - no more +X on most items. (A +1 sword being rare and valuable). Also get rid of Expertise.
5: Slight trim to the hit points to make fights faster.
6: Tidied up the limited duration conditions to only the EO(target's)NT, (Save Ends), and long term durations. Saving throws also affect EONT abilities.
7: Something with grabs.
In short just enough to make the game (a) improved arguably other than point i, and (b) just about compatable but only just about.
[MENTION=60419]dammitbiscuit[/MENTION], nice idea - but I'm not touching reddit with a 10 foot bargepole I'm afraid. Some other wiki for preference.
