If Harm is broken, what's the best house rule for it?

[Anubis]

I assume you mean with unarmed strikes, i.e, the d20 damage.

Alright.

Assuming the monk puts a 14 in strength to begin, and buys a girdle of giant's strength +6, he has a 20 strength, for a +5 strength bonus to damage. Add the amulet of mighty fists +5, you get a +5 enhancment bonus to damage. Is there anything else to pile on? Monks aren't my strong point. Anyway, that gives 10.5 base + 5 strength + 5 enhancment for 20.5 average damage per blow, or 41 on a critical hit, with a 19-20/x2 threat range. It should be noted that the monk, even though he has more attacks per round than the fighter, will, on average, hit fewer times, because of his 25% worse BAB.

Okay, now the fighter. Assuming the fighter put a 16 into strength to begin (fighters don't have to worry about nearly as many stats as monks, so we can have a higher strength score), and buys a belt of giant strength +6, puts 4 of his 5 attribute points in strength, and buys a +5 icy burst flaming burst keen falchion, does 5 base + 12 strength + 5 enhancment + 2.5 fire + 2.5 frost for 27 damage, or 43 on a critical hit, with a 11-20/x2 threat range.

Now the wizard. The wizard has Spell Focus (Transmuation), Greater Spell Focus (Transmutation) Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration and Heighten.

The wizard starts with 18 int (I play 25 point buy and this is easy to do), puts all of his level bonuses into int, gets a tome of int +5, and a headband of int +6, for 34 int. He also casts an empowered empowered empowered empowered fox's cunning on himself, using a lesser rod of empowerment, for an average +10.5 to int that does not stack with the headband That leaves his int at a healthy 38.

He Heightens a flesh to stone to 9th level, and casts it at your monk. DC 39, with a +24 bonus to beat spell resistance, vs your save of 12 base + 5 cloak of resistance + 5 constitution bonus. The monk needs a 17+ to save, while the wizard only needs a 6 or higher to beat SR. Doesn't look so good for mr.monk.

Who's more damaging again?

Do you always compare power by comparing two characters of equal level? If so, it's no wonder you think the monk is weak. In order to determine the power of a character, you must take the power of that character in relation to an entire party against a specific CR.

When going one-on-one, the wizard will obliterate all other classes once you get to higher levels. That's one-on-one with PC classes, however, which is not even A focus of the game, much less THE focus of the game.

UK and I learned long ago that you can't compare power based on one-on-one PC duels. You would be wise to realize the same thing.

 

[James McMurray]

Ok, so give us an explanation of how the monk is more powerful without using a one-on-one duel please.

 

[maddman75]

Undead are not immune to all FOrt saves. If it is a fort save that applies to undead specifically or affects the body itself, they use a Cha bonus instead of Con.

Good point about the inflict spells though, maybe I will make it will.

Also, the minimun of four is there to prevent possible wonkiness - as in a creature dies if they make the save, but lives if they fail. There are no other spells like it - but neither are there any spells like harm.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The monk example is a bit weak, IMO. You're better off getting Bracers of Striking (free) +1 with flaming, etc, and then get a GMW put on it. In fact, the fighter would be better off getting a +1 shock speed bastard sword, then cast GMW on it. Base 1d20 is a heck of a lot better than base 1d10.

Monks tend to have high touch ACs, so they might survive a Harm. However, most monsters in the book have terrible touch ACs, especially at high level. It's not fair for every high level creature to have to take a template that gives deflection bonuses to survive.

 

[IceBear]

Not proof or anything, but I've noticed a number of NWN severs using house rule scripts for Harm (save for half damage) based on player feedback. From what I understand, it isn't actually a touch spell in NWN so it's even more powerful there

Anyway, I allow a Will save for half damage as my players and I reached an easy consenus on that - they didn't like the idea of being so easily mortally wounded.

IceBear

 

[Anubis]

Ok, so give us an explanation of how the monk is more powerful without using a one-on-one duel please.

More attacks than any other class . . . More damage than any other class . . . Evasion and Improved Evasion . . . Five attacks instead of four . . . Immune to poison and most diseases . . . SR . . . Damage reduction . . . They don't age . . . The best saves in the game . . . Best speed in the game . . . Need I go on?

 

[IceBear]

But for some reason in ACTUAL gameplay all the monk players I've seen SUCK

Weird I know, but that's been my experience. Maybe it's just another case of something looking better on paper than it actually is.

IceBear

 

[Anubis]

The monk example is a bit weak, IMO. You're better off getting Bracers of Striking (free) +1 with flaming, etc, and then get a GMW put on it. In fact, the fighter would be better off getting a +1 shock speed bastard sword, then cast GMW on it. Base 1d20 is a heck of a lot better than base 1d10.

What the heck are Bracers of Striking?

Is that from Forgotten Realms? If so, we need to ignore it, because EVERYTHING in Forgotten Realms is broken.

I'm going on the core rules and the class books. You can't judge the core classes any other way. Using Forgotten Realms in ANY example is a bad idea.

 

[Anubis]

Undead are not immune to all FOrt saves. If it is a fort save that applies to undead specifically or affects the body itself, they use a Cha bonus instead of Con.

That's what I said. Unless it effects objects, Undead are immune.


Also, the minimun of four is there to prevent possible wonkiness - as in a creature dies if they make the save, but lives if they fail. There are no other spells like it - but neither are there any spells like harm. [/B][/QUOTE]

 

[Anubis]

But for some reason in ACTUAL gameplay all the monk players I've seen SUCK

That just means your players don't know how to play monks.

Weird I know, but that's been my experience. Maybe it's just another case of something looking better on paper than it actually is.

It's a great class, I've seen the destruction. I've DONE the destruction. Monk is a powerful class, but it is also a VERY COMPLEX class. It takes a lot of skill to play a monk correctly. That's actually where the balance is.