If Harm is broken, what's the best house rule for it?

[Antikinesis]

Food for thought...

What would be the results of casting Harm on a subject that already has less than 1d4 hit points? (I.e., zero or negative.)

How about it heals them up to +1d4 hp, letting them get back on their feet?

(Actually, if I had a player goofy enough to try that, I think I'd rule that it has no effect. )

-AK

 

[Tom Cashel]

I don't want my npc's wiped out with a touch- and they don't want their pc's wiped out with a touch. The problem is solved with a saving throw. And the fun continues

This is a very good point, but (am I'm not trying to needle, I'm just asking) have you also done away with critical hits?

Yes, there's only a chance that a crit will take place, but then again, there's only a chance of hitting with the Touch for a Harm spell...albeit a better chance.

Antikinesis: I'm giving your sig-quote to my players. That's fantastic.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

1. All you need is a fly spell to avoid it... or be able to fly.

Not all creatures fly. Your PC will need wizardly help to do this.

3. And as for combining it with haste, Clerics can't even cast that spell, so they'd be relying on Wizardly help.

See the response to point #1.

4. Also, it doesn't even kill you! It just knocks you down to 1-4 HP, giving most creatures a chance to get away and heal.

How many monsters in the MM, or, heck, the ELH, have the ability to heal themselves? How much does a potion usually heal?

Yes, there's only a chance that a crit will take place, but then again, there's only a chance of hitting with the Touch for a Harm spell...albeit a better chance.

A much better chance. We're talking about almost never missing chance. Have you ever missed a dragon with a touch attack? BTW a crit doesn't always knock an opponent to d4 hp. It might not even remove half of the opponent's hp. It certainly won't remove half of a dragon's hp.

 

[Henry]

You put a cap on [Harm] and clerics can't stand up to wizards anymore.

This is not necessarily a bad thing. There is a school of thought that says that Clerics get an inordinate amount of power compared to the other character classes in 3E D&D.

 

[0-hr]

In my campaign we've given Harm a full round casting time (just like Summon Monster I). That seems to balance it out pretty well.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

have you also done away with critical hits?

No. At low levels crits have a chance to wipe out a person in one go, but definitly not at higher levels.

However, I tend to be very generous about them saving each other. No matter how much damage is done, I usually will not drop the person below -9 (unless it is a dramatic moment). That gives the other players one round to intercede.

Plus- the crit usually requires to hit the armor class, not just a touch attack.

Vorpal weapons might be an issue, but I don't put them in my game and no one has attempted to make one.

In the end, Harm falls into the same category as the insta-death spells. For the most part, it is anticlimatic. A cleric will not waste it on a goblin with a spear- hoping to save it for a major villian. However- the major villian fight lasting 1 or 2 rounds can leave an empty feeling.

Of course, the latter issue can always be addressed by the right design of the encounter- but I am speaking in general.

FD

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Congratulations. You've perfected condescension. Please forgive me for trying to generate a discussion, instead of asking a simple question with a yes/no answer, oh one and only Furn Darkside!

I apologize for the troll-remark. I misinterpreted the nature of your posts.

FD

 

[Xarlen]

And Insta-Kill spells are what balance the game for spellcasters/vs Meleers. See the General rules thread.

As for Villains dieing with a touch, I guess all your wizards and clerics just wield buff/defensive spells, eh? Since fireballs Suck vs. meleers, due to all them thar HPs.

How many creatures can heal themselves? Well, I don't know... An Enemy Cleric maybe? The same person that WOULD use Harm?

So, it's Okay for the PCs to use Heal, but not the NPCs? Not monsters? Not Villains? Riiight. I guess it's not okay for them to use Haste, either.

As for not all monsters flying, or relying on Wizardly help, there are these little magical things in bottles called Potions. They can be purchased in any place that sells magical items.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

And Insta-Kill spells are what balance the game for spellcasters/vs Meleers. See the General rules thread.

I have seen it and partcipated to a small degree- your conclusion that they are balanced has not been proven to my satisfaction.

FD

 

[Al]

Well, on another thread I established myself as an advocate of save-or-die. I have a problem with Harm: it's no-save-and-die.

Let's be fair. A simple Harm, with a simple touch attack, followed by a Quickened Inflict Wounds, can take down any living creature, great or small, with no benefit of a save.

In this, it is unmatched by any other spell in the game. All of the other instakill effects allow a save, with the exception of Power Word: Kill, which has a hp cap. No other spell in the game, and no other effect in the game (except Vorpal, but that's a different thread altogether) has the same sort of damaging power that Harm can dish out.

As for the Harm/Heal dichotomy, this is a nonsense. There is no 'parallel' dimension in DnD. Is there a 9th level wiz/sor spell that raises people in a 30' radius spread to mirror Wail of the Banshee? No. Is there 'Healing Barrier', which heals 1d6/level in an area for 1 round/level? Of course not. Spell symmetry, clearly, is a nonsense.

The counter-arguments have, for the most part, relied on pure assertion. There has been the necessity for a touch attack (easy at high levels, and if this fails, just go again!). There has been that Harm doesn't kill you (+ Quickened Inflict Wounds: you're dead.) There has been the escape-clause of flying (circumvented with wizardly aid, potions, Greater Aspect of the Deity, Wings of Flying, etc.). There has been 'getting up to the big dragon' (no big deal: you take one hit, then make an easy Conc check to cast defensively).

Essentially, Harm is broken as written. I allowed a *Will* save (in line with Inflict Wounds) for 6d8+level: more damage than Slay Living, comparable damage to Destruction. I think my correction is fair.