If Harm is broken, what's the best house rule for it?

[Darkness]

Harm in its commonly-used form it too powerful (i.e., no save, bam - down to 1d4 hp no matter how many hp you had) IMO...

Case in point: Per the spell creation guidelines in the DMG (p.95-96), a 6th-level divine spell should be able to do more damage than 15d6 (or a corresponding amount of other die types). Thus, no 6th-level divine spell should have the potential to do more than 15*6 = 90 points.

And there's no reason why harm should break this rule. (After all, if new spells shouldn't, "old" spells shouldn't, either.)

So... That's how I interpret it: No save, but it can't do more than 90 points of damage (since no 6th-level divine spell should do more).

(Side note:Mass heal, an 8th-level spell, can - if used against undead - can do up to 20*6 = 120 points to each target, though.)

 

[Xarlen]

The Contingency+Heal was for a DRAGON.

Though, I imagine a high enough wizard with a level of Cleric and a scroll of Heal could do it.

 

[Krafen]

Why would that wording be needed? It only comes into play against a creature of 7 or less hit points, and by then, it doesn't really matter at this level. I would let it stand as is, or make it half hit points plus one per hit die/level to actually make it MEAN something.

You're right, it is not vital. I just put it in for the purposes of consistency.

 

[Lucius Foxhound]

And offhand comments like SR to balance spells is clearly nonsense. By that token, any spell devised could be balanced (with a few very rare exceptions). Firstly, many opponents do not have SR: especially humanoids (yes, they can cast it, but it's easily dispelled). Secondly, SR is a trump card against any spell. Spells have to be compared with other spells of equivalent level, not against SR: otherwise, Power Word: Kill would be balanced with Ray of Frost (both are subject to SR.)

Yes, but I think you missed an earlier point. A really, really high SR won't do diddly against a burley fighter with a big ol' sword. So Harm's a high level spell that gives clerics a chance to do lots of damage just like a fighter might. But of course, Harm's much more powerful than any melee attack... but it has to first overcome with SR.

That's called balance. I think it's why these things are play tested. Use the force, man.

 

[ForceUser]

Thank you.

Though, no need to be snippy.

Snippy? No sir, precise.

 

[ForceUser]

I have a Fireball handy for trolls like you.

This is proof, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Harm needs a save. Clerics are not supposed to be primarily offensive, but with Harm, they are. We took out almost 30 dragons that should have been able to crush us all thanks to Harm! Do you understand now? Try actually playing with it, and you'll experience the same thing.

One, I resent being labeled a troll for expressing my point of view. Two, I appreciate your opinion, which is shared by many and grounded in logic, but your rhetoric will not sway me. I will play with harm as written and decide for myself.

 

[1337 h4xor]

No. At low levels crits have a chance to wipe out a person in one go, but definitly not at higher levels.

if your a caster and live through a crit from a high level weapons master i'd be supprised.

 

[Piratecat]

One, I resent being labeled a troll for expressing my point of view. Two, I appreciate your opinion, which is shared by many and grounded in logic, but your rhetoric will not sway me. I will play with harm as written and decide for myself.

As well you should!

I know that with harm as written, I could kill the most powerful undamaged PC in my high level game in one round, with virtually no chance of PC survival and no way to avoid the death. Is this fun for either the player or me? No. Do similar spells (ie inflict spells) require a saving throw? Yes. Has the game's architect (Monte Cook) said that he believes a save should be required? Yes.

Thus, I change it to will save = inflict critical wounds damage, min 4 hp. And it works beautifully for me.

 

[Xarlen]

Just sounded a lil' snippy, there for a bit. Of course, that may be because I was steamy.

 

[Anubis]

One, I resent being labeled a troll for expressing my point of view. Two, I appreciate your opinion, which is shared by many and grounded in logic, but your rhetoric will not sway me. I will play with harm as written and decide for myself.

Where's kreynolds when you need him? You've probably got some of them feats he talks about, like "Thick-Headed" I believe. Any 6th-level spell that can deal thousands of damage with no save is broken, plain and simple. Unless you can come up with something, ANYTHING to disprove what I have proven, something that refutes the plain and clear evidence, then all you're doing is being stubborn.