If Harm is broken, what's the best house rule for it?

bret said:


Doesn't to me.

Average damages are:
35, 27 + level (min 11), 18 + level (minimum 9)

Even at minimum level, if you give Harm 6d8 + level on a failed roll it will do more than 10d6 will usually do.

Destruction also kills you to where you need True Resurrection to be brought back, Harm does not.

Only the truly foolish think Harm isn't broken as-is. It is clearly the single most powerful spell in the game, being the only one that can kill with no save AND no limit. The only other no save kill spell is Power Word, Kill, a NINTH level WIZARD spell that has a hp limit to what can be affected.

Personally, I have NEVER seen someone live after being hit by Harm. It is less than 5% survival rate. That's better than Disintegrate, Slay Living, and Destruction PUT TOGETHER!

Also, Harm is better than Power Word, Kill in that it can bring even the mightiest Prismatic Dragon to its knees. Hell, you could even bring GODS to their knees with this spell!
 

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mirivor said:
I haven't read all 124 responses to this so I apologize if what I have to say has already been said.

Something that nobody seems to mention when it comes to Harm is this simple fact: Harm cannot kill anything. That tidbit is not to be negligently tossed aside. You have a higher level spell that, while awesome versus one large opponent, is impotent against the majority of the monstrous manual creatures.

"What? I see the lone remaining goblin? I only have one spell left, but it IS 6th level. I cast my Harm on the poor bugger and ... DOH!"

Just my opinion, but filling a 6th level slot with a spell that one will only use against possibly 20% of the standard D&D creatures is actually a gamble. Now, I am not saying that Harm is worthless... far from it... but one has to take ALL aspects of a spell into account before declaring it to be broken. Nearly every offensive spell in the game can kill. Magic missile, Inflict wounds, Fireball, etc. all have the capability to slay a creature. Harm does not. Just something to toss around in your brains. Later!

Actually, it just about ALWAYS kills opponents. I have yet to see anyone survive after being hit with Harm.
 

After careful consideration, I have found the perfect fix for Harm. Let's just make it clear right now that Harm is effectively an instant-death spell as it stands right now. Few beings ever survive after being hit by Harm, so although it's not instant death by default, it is not only as effective, but actually MORE effective than instant death, solely because it gives *no save*, unlike actual instant-death spells. The lack of a saving throw is what breaks Harm, plain and simple. No amount of debate can change that.

Even by the DMG's standards, Harm is broken. This is a spell that can potentially do thousands of points of damage and yet gives *no save*. There is not a single other spell in the entire game, of any level, that can match the damage potential of Harm. Even Epic Spells fail to stand up to the mighty Harm. This all proves that Harm IS, in FACT, broken as-is.

Here is my solution.

Harm
Necromancy
Level: Clr 6, Destruction 6, Drd 7
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will partial (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes

Harm charges a subject with negative energy that causes the loss of all but 1d4 hit points. Upon a successful save, the subject instead takes 6d6 points of damage.

If used on an undead creature, Harm acts like Heal.

Basically, this keeps it's full power-as-is, so as not to nerf it completely, but it also solves the problem of it not having a save, unlike every other instant-death spell. In addition, the damage dealt after the save is now more than Slay Living offers, but still less than Destruction, balancing it nicely.
 


Anubis said:
After careful consideration, I have found the perfect fix for Harm.
Here is my solution.

Harm
Necromancy
Level: Clr 6, Destruction 6, Drd 7
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will partial (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes

Harm charges a subject with negative energy that causes the loss of all but 1d4 hit points. Upon a successful save, the subject instead takes 6d6 points of damage.

If used on an undead creature, Harm acts like Heal.
Why is yours Perfect and the other 40 posted, not?
 


Anubis said:
This all proves that Harm IS, in FACT, broken as-is.

Anubis is right. He has proven that Harm is definitely broken. Rangers are also broken. As is Shield, clerics, tanglefoot bags, monks, Foresight, Magic of Faerun, and Gust of wind.

Hell, it seems that 3E is pretty much broken. I'm going back to 1E. Who wants to be an Elf?
 

Lucius Foxhound said:


Anubis is right. He has proven that Harm is definitely broken. Rangers are also broken. As is Shield, clerics, tanglefoot bags, monks, Foresight, Magic of Faerun, and Gust of wind.

Hell, it seems that 3E is pretty much broken. I'm going back to 1E. Who wants to be an Elf?
I'll be the Cleric! They've been broken for years! ;)

Oh... don't forget the 5ft. step! It's REALLY broken!
 

I still think it sounds like a neutered Slay Living. Slay living Kills you, touch attack, 3d6 damage.

Harm does Not kill you, but puts you at 1d4, so yet another thing has to happen to kill you; waste of a spell, action, etc. It's a touch attack.

Destruction kills you. It's a *ranged* attack.

So we go from Touch, Die or Damage, Touch, d4 or Damage, Ranged Death or damage.

All you're making harm into is more damage on a failed save, and making that d4 there. I still think that with said modifications, it needs some Spice to it. Something that makes it more attractive then Slay living, other then the fact that it just does 3d6 more damage on a failed save.

The way you have it set up, it'd be no different then just Hightening Slay living. Infact, it'd almost be better, because Slay Living kills you, dead, no need for wasting a second action on you, cuz you dead.
 
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