If not magic items, then what?

[HukdUnFonx]

Most of what I'm seeing about 4e I like so far. One thing, though, that still has me puzzled is the claim of less reliance on magic items. While I don't mind this in principle, I don't understand what they're going to replace it with, as a reward. What I mean is that, as of now, the major ways that adventurers are rewarded for getting up in the morning and slaying some monsters are money, plot advancement, experience, and magic items. Of these, magic items provide arguably the most immediate and interesting (in the sense of adding an unpredictable element to the player's experience) reward to the player. If this is going away, what sort of immediate, interesting reward can be provided to players without breaking the game? Alternatively, could it be that the number of magic items a player is *allowed* to carry will be limited by the rules?

Also, if there are going to be fewer magic items around, what will money be used for, given that, at present, the largest part of a player's wealth is normally spent on magic items? Will magic just be that much more expensive?

 

[tricky_bob]

I agree, without magic items D&D is going to lose something.

I think one of the best books released is the Magic Item Compendium. Why give D&D players a whole book stuffed with great magic items for all budgets if you're going to take them all away a year later??? It makes no sense.

 

[Cadfan]

I agree, without magic items D&D is going to lose something.

I think one of the best books released is the Magic Item Compendium. Why give D&D players a whole book stuffed with great magic items for all budgets if you're going to take them all away a year later??? It makes no sense.

We're not losing all magic items.

The dissatisfaction with current magical item use is that a melee character usually wants all of the following, always: gloves of dexterity, belt of strength, amulet of natural armor, ring of protection, and cloak of resistance.

The problem with these items is that they're SO GOOD that its almost silly not to use them. And if you DO use them, you never get to use any of the stuff in the Magic Item Compendium, because your item slots are filled with these things.

 

[Plane Sailing]

plot advancement, social position, favours owed, maidens rescued, kingdoms won, righteous triumph - all those frilly little things that we used to concentrate on

 

[EricNoah]

My guess is PCs will end up with more interesting/fun items and fewer "necessary" items. Also, with 30 levels instead of 20 in the core, but a slower power scale, I imagine leveling up a little more often will be seen as a reward by some.

 

[scrubkai]

I thought the goal was not to eliminate magic items, but to eliminate the "Needed" magic items.

So there will still be magic, but it will be the more interesting kind that let you do things in specal situations and make your character interesting rather then just make machanical changes.

So less of the headbands of intelect and more of the Helms of Telepathy type items...

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

People keep missing the point on the changes in 4e Magic items. They aren't taking them away. They are reducing the reliance on magic items for PCs.

The EL and CR system was based upon the idea that each PC would have magic items to boost attacks and AC. If you didn't have these items, the challenges would be much harder, and there was no good way of figuring out just how to balance the encounter.

In 4e, it appears there will still be magic items that provide attack bonuses and AC boosts. The difference is that the PCs will progress in terms of attacks and AC such that they won't have to have magic items to meet the challenges for their level. Because the magic items will be a bonus on top of the PC abilities, I expect we'll see a more limited level of magic - mid level PCs will still be using +1 or +2 weapons and armor, no need to jump to the +4 or +5 in order to survive. What I expect is that they are going to try and build the magic items to be a little more interesting than just a straight boost to attack or AC.

 

[Toryx]

It's really a matter of shifting perspective. I've always disliked the focus of money and equipment as the primary purpose in adventuring. Rpgs beyond the wargames have traditionally been a different kind of game where you're not playing to get the highest score or points. The purpose of the game is playing the game.

One of the bad points of 3.x in my mind has been the shift from focusing on the playing toward getting the rewards. And that's been reflected by the massive amounts of money that pcs end up with and the consequential ability to buy any sort of item you want within your rather large financial limits. It becomes more about the reward and less about the simple joy in playing.

So if we reduce the kinds of magic items that become requisite for any particular class or adventurer, and focus more on items that enhance the experience of playing it just requires a change of perspective. Now you're adventuring to save the world/ your family/ your honor/ etc., not acquire as much money and magic as possible to become the bigger better you so that you can acquire the next bigger, more powerful pile of loot.

But I don't think they're going to be gone. They'll just be different. And I think the Magic Items Compedium is a reflection of the kind of magic items we'll be seeing. Fewer flat out stat/ save enhancements and more daily/ encounter uses to provide more options for game play.

At least, that's what I'm hoping.

 

[Toben the Many]

We're not losing all magic items.

The dissatisfaction with current magical item use is that a melee character usually wants all of the following, always: gloves of dexterity, belt of strength, amulet of natural armor, ring of protection, and cloak of resistance.

The problem with these items is that they're SO GOOD that its almost silly not to use them. And if you DO use them, you never get to use any of the stuff in the Magic Item Compendium, because your item slots are filled with these things.

Wow. Great point.

To re-iterate...I wasn't under the impression that magic items were being done away with either. Personally, I like the whole idea of less magic items anyway, because that fits my playstyle better.

I also think that less magic items better fits what David Noonan talked about with the serving of Fantasy Roleplay tropes. Conan doesn't walk around draped in magical items. The guys in Lord of the Rings had some magic items, yes. But they didn't have them stapled to their whole bodies. Even in D&D novels like RA Salvatore's work or any of the other D&D books, the characters aren't walking around with every magic item slot filled.

All that being said...I think the most important thing about having less magic items is that it means that the game will be more equitable. Right now, you get as many magic items as the DM says you get. Yet, the game in its current state assumes you get something. But if you're playing in a campaign where the DM just hasn't handed out magic, then the fighters really fall behind the wizards fast. Magic items are almost necessary right now to keep the party balanced. Which puts one more onus on the DM.

 

[HukdUnFonx]

Wow. Great point.

To re-iterate...I wasn't under the impression that magic items were being done away with either. Personally, I like the whole idea of less magic items anyway, because that fits my playstyle better.

I also think that less magic items better fits what David Noonan talked about with the serving of Fantasy Roleplay tropes. Conan doesn't walk around draped in magical items. The guys in Lord of the Rings had some magic items, yes. But they didn't have them stapled to their whole bodies. Even in D&D novels like RA Salvatore's work or any of the other D&D books, the characters aren't walking around with every magic item slot filled.

All that being said...I think the most important thing about having less magic items is that it means that the game will be more equitable. Right now, you get as many magic items as the DM says you get. Yet, the game in its current state assumes you get something. But if you're playing in a campaign where the DM just hasn't handed out magic, then the fighters really fall behind the wizards fast. Magic items are almost necessary right now to keep the party balanced. Which puts one more onus on the DM.

In response to what's been said so far, I agree that I don't mind having fewer magic items; my question was more about the implementation than anything. Players need some kind of a reward for adventuring; otherwise there's no motivation to play. I don't suggest that magic items will be removed from the game, but, if there are fewer of them to go around, I wonder what will be the impetus for adventuring to take their place. The designers can certainly balance the game to be reasonable without many magic items, but that still won't remove the need to reward players for accomplishing things.

It's really a matter of shifting perspective. I've always disliked the focus of money and equipment as the primary purpose in adventuring. Rpgs beyond the wargames have traditionally been a different kind of game where you're not playing to get the highest score or points. The purpose of the game is playing the game.

One of the bad points of 3.x in my mind has been the shift from focusing on the playing toward getting the rewards. And that's been reflected by the massive amounts of money that pcs end up with and the consequential ability to buy any sort of item you want within your rather large financial limits. It becomes more about the reward and less about the simple joy in playing.

So if we reduce the kinds of magic items that become requisite for any particular class or adventurer, and focus more on items that enhance the experience of playing it just requires a change of perspective. Now you're adventuring to save the world/ your family/ your honor/ etc., not acquire as much money and magic as possible to become the bigger better you so that you can acquire the next bigger, more powerful pile of loot.

But I don't think they're going to be gone. They'll just be different. And I think the Magic Items Compedium is a reflection of the kind of magic items we'll be seeing. Fewer flat out stat/ save enhancements and more daily/ encounter uses to provide more options for game play.

At least, that's what I'm hoping.

I agree (and mentioned in my original post) that plot advancement was one reward for adventuring, but I don't think it's enough to stand in for the immediate gratification offered by magic items. As it stands, from the player's perspective, he generally busts in the door to a dungeon, smooshes whatever's moving in there, and gets rewarded. Real plot advancement tends to be fairly gradual; generally the princess/world/honor will not be saved until reaching the bottom of the dungeon, whereas magic items offer instant gratification anytime. My real question is, if magic items are so rare that they're now also waiting at the bottom of the dungeon rather than a quick reward on the way down, what will take their place as intermediate and immediate gratification for the player?