Pathfinder 1E If Paizo can, why can't Wizards of the Coast?

[rgard]

You notice the savages don't grumble about it.

That's because they spent their skill points on things other than literacy!

 

[Azgulor]

<snip - thread full of awesome>

Dammit!!!!! Why can't I give Wicht XP for this?!??! Frakkin' commie-based xp distribution system!!!

 

[Mercurius]

Wicht, I don't find it to be a puzzler, I'm just ok with more drastic change, especially when the "six-wheeled vehicle" doesn't invalidate anything that "car company" came out with before.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Wicht, I don't find it to be a puzzler, I'm just ok with more drastic change, especially when the "six-wheeled vehicle" doesn't invalidate anything that "car company" came out with before.

As has been pointed out, at length, there are a lot of people with excellent reason to feel otherwise.

And that it is a six wheeled car with square tires into the bargain.

This thread is beginning to close in on edition war territory. You are not going to change opinions by shouting 'it ain't so!', 'cause for a lot of people yes, yes it is.

The Auld Grump

 

[LuckyAdrastus]

Put me down in the "I like my game to have periodic improvements" camp. It'd be nice if WotC could somehow magically produce the perfect game all at once and never need to change it, but in the world of tabletop RPGs, which is only about a generation old, there is still lots of neat innovation I'd like to include in my games. I'm very happy that WotC does this, otherwise we'd still have broken battleragers, or I wouldn't soon be able to build a boss halfing battlemind who wields a rapier and defends about as well as your average dwarf paladin.

 

[Wicht]

Wicht, I don't find it to be a puzzler, I'm just ok with more drastic change, especially when the "six-wheeled vehicle" doesn't invalidate anything that "car company" came out with before.

I thought you had asked why one company seemed to get more grief than other companies. Others had already tried pointing out you were creating a strawman/apples and oranges argument. I just tried illustrating that same point in a different way.

I think your original post was a little misleading if you don't want people to explain why one gets more grief than the other. In fact, I'm starting to suspect that you really just wanted complain about some fans who were upset at innovations that did not upset you. I think it should go without saying that some fans are fine with changes made. That says nothing, however about the nature of the changes.

Moreover, I really don't understand your invalidate argument. What do you mean "invalidate?" I really don't understand your use of the word nor do I think that anyone is arguing older products are "invalid". I think the complaint is that they are "incompatible."

When discussing the latest model of car, if I dislike the new diesel engine and the shape of the body, I'm not going to be convinced its a wonderful car by those that tell me I can switch out the engine and rebuild the body myself.

Moreover, if I have a garage full of parts that have worked on a variety of models, I'm going to be a little put out when the manufacturer switches to a different engine which uses none of the old parts. I'm going to be even more upset if I'm an enthusiast who finds out that the company discontinued the manufacturing of Last Year's engine parts and, even worse, stopped the distribution of repair manuals for Last Year's car because they are only going to support and offer repairs for the very latest model exclusively. In fact, I likely will end up taking my business to the car manufacturer who is still building those older parts and offering technical support for the older engine.

 

[LuckyAdrastus]

Moreover, if I have a garage full of parts that have worked on a variety of models, I'm going to be a little put out when the manufacturer switches to a different engine which uses none of the old parts. I'm going to be even more upset if I'm an enthusiast who finds out that the company discontinued the manufacturing of Last Year's engine parts and, even worse, stopped the distribution of repair manuals for Last Year's car because they are only going to support and offer repairs for the very latest model exclusively. In fact, I likely will end up taking my business to the car manufacturer who is still building those older parts and offering technical support for the older engine.

How good is this analogy?

Cars need new parts to operate, so if the company stops producing re-placement parts for the existing car, it will become worthless as soon as it has a problem that cannot be fixed without the new parts. So, you have a situation where the companies' decision caused the existing car to soon have a value of zero, once it needs a major repair.

Whereas, errata and new editions don't erase the previously existing information. The older books are widely available. You don't need new information to play the game the old way. I could go back to my 1st edition books, back at my parents house in my old bedroom, pull them out, and play 1st edition just as well now as then, even though new options came later. So you don't have a situation where the companies' adopting of a new standard damages the old product. The old product remains fully functional, indefinitely.

 

[Umbran]

I'm going to be even more upset if I'm an enthusiast who finds out that the company discontinued the manufacturing of Last Year's engine parts and, even worse, stopped the distribution of repair manuals for Last Year's car ...

Cars wear out and break down. The RPG you have now can and will run for decades just as it does now. Replacement parts are not required. And if you really are an enthusiast, you already have the manuals, and their printing new copies of the old manuals isn't of much interest to you.

There are reasons to be slightly cheesed that a company changes what products they produce. But this analogy... isn't very analogous.

 

[Wicht]

How good is this analogy?

Cars need new parts to operate, so if the company stops producing re-placement parts for the existing car, it will become worthless as soon as it has a problem that cannot be fixed without the new parts. So, you have a situation where the companies' decision caused the existing car to soon have a value of zero, once it needs a major repair.

Whereas, errata and new editions don't erase the previously existing information. The older books are widely available. You don't need new information to play the game the old way. I could go back to my 1st edition books, back at my parents house in my old bedroom, pull them out, and play 1st edition just as well now as then, even though new options came later. So you don't have a situation where the companies' adopting of a new standard damages the old product. The old product remains fully functional, indefinitely.

Granted. But the problem isn't that the old product is damaged. There is no "invalidate" argument being made. Its an argument about "compatibility." The problem is that I can't take parts from my old car and put it into my new car without doing major modifications. Granted, some of that is just the way it is, but if you hang around car tinkerers very long you hear this complaint. At least I do.

And likewise, I can't take ideas from 4e and port them into my Pathfinder game without doing major modifications. The language isn't even the same. 4e is the first edition where I do not intuitively understand the notations or the stat blocks. This is not to say that I could not do the modifications. I could. But its more work than I care to do at the moment.

 

[Wicht]

Cars wear out and break down. The RPG you have now can and will run for decades just as it does now. Replacement parts are not required. And if you really are an enthusiast, you already have the manuals, and their printing new copies of the old manuals isn't of much interest to you.

So why is the PDF issue an issue with so many people then? Granted, I'm the sort to prefer antiquated hardcopies over shiny electronic copies, but there do seem to be some "enthusiasts" more than a little miffed by the lack of PDF support for older editions. Are you saying they aren't really enthusiasts or they would have already had all of what the wanted?

As for the car enthusiast: it is my observation that old Car manuals continue to sell. I would put this down to two things. Old Enthusiasts moving onto working on a car they have not yet worked on and New Enthusiasts just coming into the fold. No doubt the new repair manuals always sell better than the old but the old are nevertheless still being produced and distributed.

Edit: I'm also pretty sure its not true that Game Manuals never break down, having had a few do so on me. Fortunately I'm a better book doctor than I am a car doctor.