If players don't GM, can they complain?

[Kobold Boots]

Keeping it simple:

Do they have a right to complain: No one has a "right" to complain about anything. Freedom of Speech is not intended to be a freedom to act up or act out. Everyone has an opinion; and everyone has the ability to decide if they choose to agree with it or not, expose themselves to it or not, or to listen to it, or not.

I often find the easiest way to deal with complaints is a four step process.

1. Listen to the complaint.
2. Respond to the complaint.
3. Agree to what will resolve the complaint
4. Do those things that people agree to.

If the complaint continues you have four options:
1. We did what you told us to do and you're still not satisfied - Shut up.
2. We did what we agreed upon and you're still not satisfied - Shut up.
3. We did what we agreed upon and you're not satisfied because you changed your mind about what it was you were actually complaining about - restart process and handle real complaint.

OR

4. We did what we agreed upon and you're not satisfied because of the way I did my part of things.. therefore shut up until you're willing to do it yourself OR go away. We don't need your bull.

Process if done right documents things and eliminates future complaints of similar ilk. OR documents things and eliminates the douchebag. Either way, win win as following a fair process ultimately shows people you care. You either proactively take care of problems, ensuring fun. OR you proactively get rid of douches, ensuring fun and the betterment of the group over time assuming you continue to attract good players.

KB

 

[IronWolf]

Here's the thing, players love to be outspoken and talk trash all the time on the club site etc. That's no problem. There's also the usual old vs. new debates and the usual roleplaying vs hacking debates. This is only natural. What is starting to annoy me is that there are several players continuously grumbling about certain types of games and certain play styles - yet in the past two years, there have been precious few volunteers to DM games. The overwhelming majority of DMing (across all systems) is done by 3 people, with another 2 chipping in occassionally. The players that complain most- that the games going on could be better in xyz way, or how much they prefer old school to new school, are the ones that never DM, never volunteer to DM, and are the fastest with the excuses on why it would be impossible for them to do so.

I think everyone is entitled to a chance to complain and be heard. *But*, once that complaint it registered then if it isn't resolved to their satisfaction then they either need to consider leaving the club, stepping up to GM a game in the fashion they want in the system they want or simply sit quiet and not continue to complain over a situation that isn't likely to change.

It sounds like in your example this is more complaining happening on some of the same issues and continuing to repeat over a period of time. So yeah, that would get old and it is probably time for the complainer to step up and run a game in the style or system they want.

 

[clip]

It sounds as though, Clip, your problem is not so much that these few people are complaining... but that they are complaining about the same exact things over and over and over again.

Not really. The problem is that people who are unwilling to DM are doing the complaining - and the complaining is about what kind of game they want to play in. It's also not complaining about the quality of the DMing (ie I could do a better job) just that they want a different game. That's the thing - its easily solved. You want to play Traveller? Put your name down and do it. That's why I'm thinking it might be time to tell them to STFU.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Yes, players get a say. Rpgs need both GMs and players, otherwise there is no game.

Surely it's fine for a player to ask you to run Traveller or whatever, just as it's fine for you to say, "Sorry, but I won't run it."

As Morrus says, it's all about how the asking is done. Going on and on about it would be annoying. However you've said that that isn't the case. Imho you have not been sufficiently clear about what the problem is here.

 

[fba827]

"We don't have anyone who has volunteered to run that type of game. Do you want to run it or know someone who does?"

"No? Then unless you can find someone who does want to run it, we don't have it, but we have this instead right now -- do you want to play this or not?"

And then if it's brought up again, "the sign-up sheet doesn't have anyone listed to run that -- have you changed your mind about running it? Or have you found anyone that could run it?"

(i.e. a semi-polite STFU, giving them a way they can get it (by getting a acquaintance if not themselves), and then drawing their attention back to what is available and making them acknowledge that they do in fact want to play what is offered. and then every time they bring it up, remind them that they have the power to make the change they are asking for, they just haven't taken it )

having said all that, if it's lots of people, it might be worth it to see if any of the current dms would consider it since it's in high demand. but if it's the same one/two people over and over, then they should get more involved in making it happen or shutup about it.

Complaints are valid in of themselves when they are constructive and can lead to a better game. Complaints that aren't constructive or productive drain time and energy and enjoyment from everyone else.

 

[TheClone]

My problem often is that I want to play a certain game. But I want to damn play it and not dm it. But nobody is doing me the favor and is dming it. That really sucks, but you can't force people into it.

And by the way: Yes, players have the right to complain. In fact, they have the duty to complain. Without that no DM may get much better. But they should do it proper with the due respect to the DM.

 

[JoeGKushner]

For me, if u don't like my game, don't play. I will put the gun away. However if ur talking smack at my table, well, no one is holding a gun to my head either.

 

[ggroy]

Here's a thought. I participate regularly at a small but well supported club, and there are about 10-12 regular players of several systems, and at least another 6 semi-regular players - a lot of old school games like Traveller, CoC - but a lot of 3.5e, 4e, Hero and SW too.

Here's the thing, players love to be outspoken and talk trash all the time on the club site etc. That's no problem. There's also the usual old vs. new debates and the usual roleplaying vs hacking debates. This is only natural. What is starting to annoy me is that there are several players continuously grumbling about certain types of games and certain play styles - yet in the past two years, there have been precious few volunteers to DM games. The overwhelming majority of DMing (across all systems) is done by 3 people, with another 2 chipping in occassionally. The players that complain most- that the games going on could be better in xyz way, or how much they prefer old school to new school, are the ones that never DM, never volunteer to DM, and are the fastest with the excuses on why it would be impossible for them to do so.

So generally - everyone's entitled to an opinion, and everyone should say what they want to play - but in a club situation, should those unwilling to referee just STFU at some point?

In practice, there isn't much anybody can do about such individuals which refuse to STFU, short of throwing these individuals out and legally banning them from the club premises.

 

[Dausuul]

Can someone who doesn't cook complain in a restaurant? Can a non-movie-director complain about a movie? And a non-RPG-designer complain about a game system?

The restaurant patron is paying the cook. The movie-goer is paying to see the movie. The non-RPG-designer is paying for the game system.

The players aren't paying the DM to run a campaign for them. As such, I think it behooves them to recognize that the DM is under no obligation to cater to their particular tastes. It's good to make suggestions, offer constructive criticism, or argue your point of view in a rules debate... but at the end of the day, once you've voiced your concerns and the DM has given you a fair hearing, it's time to put up or shut up. Either vote with your feet or play the game the DM wants to run.

To me it's not even a question of whether you yourself DM. I switch off between playing and DMing, but I don't think that gives me the right to whine and moan about how the DM runs the show when I'm a player. If I don't like it, I'll do things differently next time I step behind the screen; in the meantime, if the DM is not interested in changing things to be more to my liking, I'll put up with it or sit this one out.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I agree with Dausuul, and those above who wrote similar things, all of whom I have XPed to recently to do so again (go figure!).

Yes, you have the right to express your opinion....and if you are doing so with the intent to make the club better for everyone, then I support you in doing so. If it is because you feel entitled to the game you want, well, that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

No one has an obligation to keep you amused. If you don't like the game being run, do something else. It is really that simple. As soon as I understand a player has that sort of attitude, he is shown the door. There is no "Three Strikes" rule. I have a waiting list of potential players who want very much to be in the game I am running.


RC