Quasqueton
First Post
Do undead have souls? Intelligent undead?
Quasqueton
Quasqueton
If the Soul is removed...what happens next?
- Thread starter Truth Seeker
- Start date
You need to pick your theory of the soul. The American (Iroquois, Aztec, etc.) imagines two souls, a soul that contains consciousness and another that animates the body. In Eurasian thought, things are a good deal messier. Some traditions that arise out of Gnosticism such as the medieval Jewish golem legends have a similar division but most do not.
However, there are functioning models that do not split the soul, the most obvious being Joss Whedon's Buffy universe in which soul is one thing and animate things deprived of their souls that walk around have a different soul -- that of a demon.
I think you actually need to take a position on your world's metaphysics or you'll end up with the "concept" of soul that operated in Chronicles of Riddick (ie. completely incoherent).
I would suggest that to straighten out your thinking, you attempt to slot several classes of creature in your D&D world into a model and see how they look:
(a) Vermin
(b) Corporeal Undead
(c) Incorporeal Undead
(d) Constructs
Once you're able to locate/describe these creatures, you're good to go.
However, there are functioning models that do not split the soul, the most obvious being Joss Whedon's Buffy universe in which soul is one thing and animate things deprived of their souls that walk around have a different soul -- that of a demon.
I think you actually need to take a position on your world's metaphysics or you'll end up with the "concept" of soul that operated in Chronicles of Riddick (ie. completely incoherent).
I would suggest that to straighten out your thinking, you attempt to slot several classes of creature in your D&D world into a model and see how they look:
(a) Vermin
(b) Corporeal Undead
(c) Incorporeal Undead
(d) Constructs
Once you're able to locate/describe these creatures, you're good to go.
Truth Seeker
Adventurer
Everyone, my thanks on the replies...I will try to pass this on to the player in question, and see what he thinks.
But for the DM, that is a different matter, I honestly don't feel he fully understand the severity of the action done, or if he does...he is not on the same level I am thinking on.
Worse part, this was done in Fr, currently in the Undermountain scenario.
As I said before, as describe by EN, there two souls halves...but I believe there is only one whole, and with that removed, to me, the spark that drives the body, heart and mind...will breakdown to a terrible situation.
But again, that is my view. This is a iffy subject at best, but something to consider on the repercussions of such a thing done in game.
Leave to someone to throw a mind twister in the middle of the game, which right now...has enough problems.
But for the DM, that is a different matter, I honestly don't feel he fully understand the severity of the action done, or if he does...he is not on the same level I am thinking on.
Worse part, this was done in Fr, currently in the Undermountain scenario.
As I said before, as describe by EN, there two souls halves...but I believe there is only one whole, and with that removed, to me, the spark that drives the body, heart and mind...will breakdown to a terrible situation.
But again, that is my view. This is a iffy subject at best, but something to consider on the repercussions of such a thing done in game.
Leave to someone to throw a mind twister in the middle of the game, which right now...has enough problems.
Last edited:
ARandomGod
First Post
Well, you say still alive and knowing himself. This, to me, means that he obviously did not have his soul ripped out, as anything that leaves a person still alive isn't the soul as I define it.
That being said, something happened... and I imagine there wasn't enough description of what that something is. There can be several potential interpretations, however, if the person is left still alive and knowing, well, the rage clearly comes from the animal and not the spiritual part of the "person", and so that would still be there. Personally, I imagine in such a situation the person simply looses all sense of right and wrong, all empathy, and becomes an animal, alibeit a smart animal. Essentially I would say that the character becomes evil.
ALthough it wouldn't *have* to. You could look at star trek's Data, clearly a being meant to be without a soul.
Many philosophies say that a soul is earned, and I can easily imagine a being that's lost it's soul growing a new one, if it did somehow maintain enough of itself to function in the manner you've described.
That being said, something happened... and I imagine there wasn't enough description of what that something is. There can be several potential interpretations, however, if the person is left still alive and knowing, well, the rage clearly comes from the animal and not the spiritual part of the "person", and so that would still be there. Personally, I imagine in such a situation the person simply looses all sense of right and wrong, all empathy, and becomes an animal, alibeit a smart animal. Essentially I would say that the character becomes evil.
ALthough it wouldn't *have* to. You could look at star trek's Data, clearly a being meant to be without a soul.
Many philosophies say that a soul is earned, and I can easily imagine a being that's lost it's soul growing a new one, if it did somehow maintain enough of itself to function in the manner you've described.
Knightfall
World of Kulan DM
Truth Seeker said:
Yes, but I wouldn't recommend it.
Truth Seeker
Adventurer
Subject to be Defined....hopefully.
Hi Everyone...
Just to let everyone know, this subject has caught the attention of a game writer, and he is willing to write an article on it, in Dragon magazine.
So, if anyone else wishes to add their view and game related experience on the matter. Please...continue.
Spammers...you will be fried.
Hi Everyone...
Just to let everyone know, this subject has caught the attention of a game writer, and he is willing to write an article on it, in Dragon magazine.
So, if anyone else wishes to add their view and game related experience on the matter. Please...continue.
Spammers...you will be fried.
Sejs
First Post
The way I see it, and using an example I posted in another thread a while back, is that yes undead do have souls. In the process of creating the undead creature, the soul of the original person is bound back to the now dead shell of their former body. With unintelligent undead the process is only very basic and rudimentary, enough to give the body motive force, but not enough to retain any intelligence or memory. With lower-power intelligent undead, like ghouls, the bindings are a step up in complexity, but still imperfect - the undead is intelligent, but doesn't retain any of the skills or abilities they had in their former life. Compare it to a clay pot: if you make the pot poorly, it'll look basically like a pot, but it'll be weak in spots, and have holes in others. While it looks more or less like a pot, it can't hold water very well. With intelligent undead that fully recall their former selves - vampires, liches, etc - the binding force, the pot, is fully formed and well made. It can hold water just fine.
By my assertion, undead do have souls. Their original souls, even. The process of making them undead binds that soul inexorably to their body, similar to how an outsider is a single body-soul package. Destroying the body also destroys the soul, and unless powerful magics that can reconstruct a being from a fragment of their former selves is used, such as Resurrect, True Resurrect, Wish, or Miracle, they can't be brought back again. This is also part of why you can't Resurrect or True Resurrect the soul of an undead creature who is still currently active. The soul is still around, it's just currently occupied by being undead.
I'm a "Savage Sword of Conan" and "Conan Saga" reader, and this subject came up when a sorcerer stole Conan's soul. The story arc went like this:
Conan and Ajundar sneak into Hissar Zul's mansion looking to steal the Eye of Erlik, a sword-shaped amulet. While they are sneaking, they run into two theives with the same heist in mind, including a female thief named Isparana. She gets her hands on the amulet and is off to the Khan of Zambula, for whom she is working.
Ajundar falls prey to cobras, and Hissar Zul traps Conan's soul in something like a Mirror of Life Trapping. Zul commands Conan to steal the Eye of Erlik back and return within 30 days, or he will destroy the mirror, and Conan will become a souless thing forever under control of Hissar Zul.
Conan manages to steal the Eye back, and in the process learns how to thwart Hissar Zul should he have trechary on his mind. It turns out that Hissar Zul had no intention of letting Conan live, but Conan manages to kill the wizard, and escape with the mirror.
If the mirror is broken, Conan becomes a soulless thing forever. If, however, it is broken by a ruler of men, a king, queen, or the like, then the soul should return to his body.
Cool series of magazines, lemmie tell you.
It didn't seem to me that there were any "mechanical" effects of Conan being bereft of a soul, but the narrator did say "He felt an emptyness he did not understand the depths of filled when the mirror was broken," or something like that.
So I think you could have the character carry on as normal mechanically, but the person who stole the soul would have a helluva lot of leverage over people whose souls he has. And as soon as a person lost their usefulness, he could turn them into a truly soulless creatre and control them as he would control undead zombies or somesuch.
Conan and Ajundar sneak into Hissar Zul's mansion looking to steal the Eye of Erlik, a sword-shaped amulet. While they are sneaking, they run into two theives with the same heist in mind, including a female thief named Isparana. She gets her hands on the amulet and is off to the Khan of Zambula, for whom she is working.
Ajundar falls prey to cobras, and Hissar Zul traps Conan's soul in something like a Mirror of Life Trapping. Zul commands Conan to steal the Eye of Erlik back and return within 30 days, or he will destroy the mirror, and Conan will become a souless thing forever under control of Hissar Zul.
Conan manages to steal the Eye back, and in the process learns how to thwart Hissar Zul should he have trechary on his mind. It turns out that Hissar Zul had no intention of letting Conan live, but Conan manages to kill the wizard, and escape with the mirror.
If the mirror is broken, Conan becomes a soulless thing forever. If, however, it is broken by a ruler of men, a king, queen, or the like, then the soul should return to his body.
Cool series of magazines, lemmie tell you.
It didn't seem to me that there were any "mechanical" effects of Conan being bereft of a soul, but the narrator did say "He felt an emptyness he did not understand the depths of filled when the mirror was broken," or something like that.
So I think you could have the character carry on as normal mechanically, but the person who stole the soul would have a helluva lot of leverage over people whose souls he has. And as soon as a person lost their usefulness, he could turn them into a truly soulless creatre and control them as he would control undead zombies or somesuch.
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