D&D (2024) If there are no half-elves or half-orcs will there be Tieflings (half fiends)?

[Veltharis ap Rylix]

I know that's not your rationale, your rationale appears to be your particular setting preferences. I don't see why home brewing to your particular taste is not a good option - don't we all do that, all the time?

Because explicitly moving mixed-ancestry mechanics into the homebrew/3rd party space means that the core game system and the tools built to support it won't be developed with mixed ancestry mechanics in mind. They will be developed under the expectation that everyone will play using one of the officially ordained species kits and that "mixed ancestry" is simply a matter of aesthetic details one chooses to tack on - which is to say, it becomes utterly meaningless.

And if you make the choice to play mixed ancestry characters mechanically meaningless, then people who want to express their characters' ancestry through mechanics are incentivized to not bother creating mixed ancestry characters at all, because they can't do anything mechanical to reflect that choice.

The entire point of opening up mixed ancestry to all possible species permutations was supposedly to encourage more diverse characters, but the way it is currently implemented renders that decision pointless at best and counterproductive at worst for anyone who cares about how their character is expressed via mechanics, and while that is a mindset commonly attributed to "min-maxers" and thus widely derided by "true roleplayers", the two are not and have never been mutually exclusive. A min-maxer can be a roleplayer and a roleplayer can be a min-maxer, and even those who don't feel the need for raw mechanical system mastery can still find their characters' mechanics an important part of how they conceptualize and interact with their PCs. I cannot tell you how many times I have built and rebuilt the same general character concept with slightly different mechanics because I was looking for the expression that "clicked" with me.

People can care about their characters' story and their mechanics at the same time. The current mixed ancestry rules serve only the former, and do so at the detriment of the latter.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

I prefer that a half elf just have elf or human features, any other difference just needs to be cultural.

So the Eberron Khoravar. I think they are fine just having elf traits or human traits.

 

[Veltharis ap Rylix]

I prefer that a half elf just have elf or human features, any other difference just needs to be cultural.

So the Eberron Khoravar. I think they are fine just having elf traits or human traits.

Whether you sleep or trance isn't cultural.

 

[Clint_L]

Because explicitly moving mixed-ancestry mechanics into the homebrew/3rd party space means that the core game system and the tools built to support it won't be developed with mixed ancestry mechanics in mind.

They aren't built with mixed ancestry mechanics in mind now. Except for half-elves and half-orcs, because Tolkien, and those are just treated as their own species.

Do the math on opening up specialized mixed ancestry options for all playable species combinations, in the way that we have half-orcs and half-elves in the 2014 rules. And what if a character has ancestors from three different species? Or four? It's just not remotely feasible.

An a la carte option then becomes the only viable option for what you are suggesting, though adding a ton of complexity. It is at least feasible, but incredibly hard to balance. And balance is important to game designers, whether you prioritize it or not. What you are proposing would take a ton of work, make species selection far more complex, and require constant adjustments as new species are released and new exploits become apparent. It's a fundamental and complicated redesign of how species work. And as a DM I don't want to deal with every monk being a warforged/plasmoid/tortle/aarakroa hybrid because it has been shown to be mathematically superior.

The currently proposed system allows players and DMs to have whatever ancestries they wish, without creating balance issues. It keeps species selection simple. That's why I think it is a good approach for the game as a whole. And there is absolutely no reason that you cannot continue to use the 2014 rules if you prefer. They will work fine.

 

[Remathilis]

I happen to agree with you on this. Because I happen to believe species mechanics on the whole are essentially merely window dressing... I think the game should give a 'Mixed Ancestry' species write-up and select one or two features from each species in the new PHB that are the exchangeable since no combination of them could hope to overpower anything.

So you select a foundational species to start with and then swap out one or two features taken from the other parent. They pretty much already do the same thing for Multiclassing, so why they wouldn't do it for Mixed Ancestry is beyond me. It removes the issue of the word "Half-" from any species write-up, it allows for more parental pairings than just human/elf and human/orc, and it gives a lot of people what they want. And those of us who don't particular care for it can just ignore one species write-up rather than two.

The fear is that certain combos will be viewed as optimal and thus clearly more preferable to others (or non-mixed species). Its bad enough that people talk of Sorcadins and Coffeelocks, I don't want them all picking aarakroca-dragonborn hybrids because they get flight and dragon breath or some nonsense.

 

[DEFCON 1]

No offence, but you are a serious min-maxer, are you not? Judging by many of your threads?

BWAHHHHHHH-HAAAAAAAA-HAAAAAAAAA!!!!

Min-Maxer?!? ME?!? The dude that tells everyone and their mother that they should spend a lot less time worrying about game mechanics and more about just roleplaying? Ha!

Heh heh... me, a min-maxer... that's funny!

 

[Hussar]

The fear is that certain combos will be viewed as optimal and thus clearly more preferable to others (or non-mixed species). Its bad enough that people talk of Sorcadins and Coffeelocks, I don't want them all picking aarakroca-dragonborn hybrids because they get flight and dragon breath or some nonsense.

To be fair though, how many coffeelocks or sorcadins have you ever actually seen in the wild? Or do they remain the pun pun bugaboo of 5e? Iow, would allowing a la carte race abilities actually lead to combos that are so overpowered that they become the default choice.

 

[Remathilis]

To be fair though, how many coffeelocks or sorcadins have you ever actually seen in the wild? Or do they remain the pun pun bugaboo of 5e? Iow, would allowing a la carte race abilities actually lead to combos that are so overpowered that they become the default choice.

My personal group has only one min-maxer and he's at least tried to do the paladin/hexblade combo for "teh deeps" so I know they exist.

Moreover, I do feel almost any attempt to balance each race in some fashion to allow free mixing is going to be abused. I remember Player's Options, I've played point-buy systems. Solved metas always rise to the top. The only time you get people who opt for less than potent combos are people who are too new or disinterested to find the meta or those who deliberately opt for the suboptimal choice for the RP.

Further, I don't really trust WotC to get the balance right. It would be headache enough to get the nine races in the PHB balanced, then they'd have to redo every race they've already done and will ever do. At some point, they will make a combo that is broken. It would be inevitable.

 

[Hussar]

Again, to be fair though, 5e is a long way from Players Option. The math of 5e is robust enough that it’s not easy to break. And we aren’t seeing the homogenization of options in play. Arguably dex is the best stat yet we still see lots of Str based characters for example.

Yeah there are shenanigans. That’s inevitable. But race abilities are so minor for the most part that that’s not a major concern.

I mean if the dm is groovy with flying pc’s then a flying Dragonborn pc is hardly breaking anything.

I would just prefer to leave that level of customization up to the setting or even table level.

 

[Horwath]

Maybe we should expand just on custom lineage, that could simplify "half-races"

I.E:

Pick your racial traits;
you have 6 trait points:

skill proficiency, max 2 times
combination of 4 tools, languages and/or weapons, max 2 times
expertise in one racial tool or skill
darkvision 60ft
darkvision 120ft, worth 2 points
hardy: +2 HP, +1 HP for every level after 1st, worth 2 pts
damage type resistance(except bludgeoning, slashing or piercing), max 2 times
healthy: advantage and resistance vs poison and disease
durable: advantage on one saving throw
+5 move speed, max 2 times
climb speed equal to move speed
swim speed equal to move speed and hold breath 1hr
burrow speed, half your speed
fly speed(wings), worth 4 points
cantrip, max 2 times
one level 1 spell known, cast for free once per long rest
one level 2 spell known, cast for free once per long rest
one level 3 spell known, cast for free once per long rest, worth 2 points
extra feat: worth 5 points
natural armor 13+dex or +1 AC when wearing armor you are proficient
natural weapon 1d6+str or 1d4+dex, one attack as bonus action
large frame: count as one size larger for carry capacity, grappling and similar

negative traits:
slow: -5ft speed, gain one trait point
small size: gain one trait point
sunlight sensitivity: gain one trait point
-1 to one ability; gain one trait point, max 2 times, cannot be taken on ability 8 or lower.