If you don't like minions - how would you do it?

[Grinnen Baeritt]

Ok. First an apology, I haven't read ALL of what has been posted above so I may repeat some other posters sentiments regarding this subject.

Although I like the general idea of minions as being basically 1 hit cannon fodder I do have some reservations.. and this I suppose is related to how things used to be (in all previous editions) and involves hp's of monsters in general.

To me, and many other I expect the idea of minions (cannon fodder) is not exactly a new thing. However, it does seem as if the standard version of the creatures that WERE cannon fodder have now become anything but and that 4th ed has imlemented a huge rift between the toughness of a minion and standard-type monsters like the humaniods.

The extra potiental for leader-types and solo monsters is good and matches the power increases that have occured in the characters. IMO this doesn't need changing.

What I'm trying to say that rather than having a "Minion"/Standard forms of such creature at all, make ALL such creatures "Minions" but change the way that damage is recorded to them and change them to a differing definition perhaps a "Horde" creature.

Instead of only having 1hp, each "horde" creature has a indeterminate number of hit points, these are checked only when the creature suffers damage. Only the dice type used is recorded in the scenario.

If the damage caused to the creature exceeds that randomly determined amount in one blow that creature is dead, if it isn't then it simply continues fighting. NO DAMAGE IS RECORDED the player simply assumes that the creature is tougher than normal and has more hit points. (Much the same as the current rules for minions/standard creatures work) except there is no distinction between the two and no real way for the players to guess.

So for hp, Kobold would have 1d4, Goblin a 1d6, Orc/Hobgoblin 1d8 etc

These dice are rolled and compared to the damage caused to them when the creature is hit and the damage caused is less than the highest possible result of the hp dice.

A Critical simply kills them regardless of damage caused.

The current stat block is used with additions to damage etc for level increases as per normal, but for each additional level the creatures base hp dice total is only increased by 1.

e.g. a Kobold with 4 level increases has 1d4+4.

In most cases, there will not be a noticable difference between the standard minion. e.g. A 1st level fighter doing 1d8+4 WILL automatically kill a standard Kobold, thus the hp dice need not be rolled. Though a Cleric doing 1d6+1 has a roughly 50% chance of killing a Kobold even with minimum damage.

Therefore the Player determines damage, if it less than the potiental maximum for the creature then the DM rolls for it's hit points.
If the player fails to exceed that, the creature survives and the next player to hit it follows the same procedure. The creatures hp are re-rolled. No damage is recorded between blows, it is either dead or effectively unharmed.

The damage caused by misses WOULD cause damage in the same fashion. Thus a wizard doing 24 points of damage would still automatically kill any creatures having 12 or less hp caught in the area of effect.

The net result is a system where the DM does not need as much book-keeping and the monsters become more of a variable threat.

I quite like the idea that the creature becomes bloodied after a hit as mention in one of the posts above, in this case I'd suggest the creature becoming "bloodied" if it survives ANY hit.

 

[leifthelucky]

I quite like the suggestion of a hp "die roll"; but rather than tying the die size to race (ie d4 for kobolds), what about tying it to the monster's role? For example, smaller dice for lurker/artillery minions, larger for brutes/soldiers. I would just be careful to avoid making the die too big for controller area spells and cleave effects to have a decent chance of a kill, and I would not use any multiples (like 2d4), as extreme randomness is preferable for this approach, not averages.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

As some have already suggested, adding a new kind of creature is easier than modifying minions, and more modular at that. I tried to make creating my version--Mooks--as simple as possible, so there are only a few changes to make to the minion(s) in question:

Minions

• All minions are worth 1/4 of a standard monster.
• All minions deal static damage.
• All minions die with one hit.

Mooks

• All mooks are worth 1/2 of a standard monster.
• All mooks deal variable damage such that the average damage is the static minion damage.
• All mooks die with two hits regardless of damage, being bloodied after the first hit; dailies and crits kill them in one hit.

This is the simplest alteration I've seen; basically, the idea is to add an extra hit and variable damage so they don't appear to the PCs to be minions.

 

[Grinnen Baeritt]

Yes, this could be done. My point was to remove most, if not all of the record keeping work from the DM with respect of the differing types of types of the same creature.

I have to confess I don't see a great necessity to confuse the issue with giving this type of creature a role at all. For "minions" as they stand their role is more or less defined by the equipment they have.

This, it itself, is something that can be simplified. Currently the "Minion" does a set amount of damage, something I'm not that keen on, so I have been rolling a dice type for damage that encompasses that total but can exceed it by the damage bonus of the creature (at least 1 point in all cases).

Therefore, if a minion with no inherent damage bonuses from its Strength currently does 6 damage, the "Horde" equivilent creature would roll 1d6+1, regardless of the type of weapon. Crtiticals doing maximum as normal, but the creature has a chance of rolling less than a Minion currently does.

This could be simplified by treating the damage dice the same as the hit point die... so that a creature become a "Goblin 1d8" or a "Kobold 1d6", that type of dice being used with the creature hits or is hit.

The idea is that record-keeping and referencing stat blocks is kept to an absolute minimum when dealing with large amounts of creatures. The only extra things required for reference in combat situation should be the Defenses.