Ignoring the Math

[klofft]

Please feel free to point me elsewhere if this is an old question.

I've only DMed through 7th level. In that time, I use new monster math if I have it available (e.g., in the MV) but otherwise I ignore it.

Thus far, I see that monsters are more dangerous but not much easier to defeat.

If I continue this practice (using new math if it is already available but otherwise ignoring it rather than modding monsters), what am I likely to encounter going into higher levels?

Is it just a case that combat becomes less challenging and more grind-y? Or does it become WAY less challenging?

Any insights would be helpful. Thanks!

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The new math is more than about damage. This gulf gets wider at higher levels, though, so as your PCs gain levels, they'll notice a bigger difference between old and new-designed monsters.

Older monsters tend to be grindier and don't cleave to the math standard. Newer monsters tend to be more offensive instead, and the new solos are far better designed.

Old solos had few abilities to resist status effects, so getting tagged with a single round duration stun or daze (one that doesn't give a saving throw) was like tagging 5 monsters simultaneously with that effect. New solos often have abilities to resist lockdown. The new dragons, for instance, have Instinctive X abilities; the monster gets a free attack, but loses that if dazed, stunned or dominated (but also erases the condition). Therefore a controller PC still "nerfs" the monster if they hit it with such an effect, but it's like taking out one monster, not five.

Older elites and solos had large AC and NAD bonuses, which the new ones don't get. Old solos got x5 hp at paragon+, now they always get x4 hp.

Some old solos, like the purple worm, were just terribly designed. A solo needs to get three attacks per round, and the purple worm just didn't deliver.

 

[jodyjohnson]

Once you get to Paragon the damage numbers are so low that creatures almost never even bloody your PCs.

There are also a lot of daze and stun powers that get really annoying at Paragon that stretch out fights.

I redo all the creatures in the DDI Creature Builder when preparing encounters.

 

[Jhaelen]

Older elites and solos had large AC and NAD bonuses, which the new ones don't get. Old solos got x5 hp at paragon+, now they always get x4 hp.

Yup. Even more importantly, old elites and solos didn't properly take the action economy into account.

If you happen to have MM1, compare the original Oni Mage to it's updated Dungeon version. It's a real eye-opener!

Solos, even in their latest incarnation can still be problematic, and with a few exceptions (e.g. MV dragons, hydras) aren't even close to being the equivalent of five monsters. In my game, I decided to treat them as being the equivalent of four monsters, increasing the available xp budget to add more monsters to encounters. That's a _bit_ better, but I still tend to use them sparsely.

 

[Neonchameleon]

If you want an even worse example, compare the Purple Worm in the MM1 to the one in MV.

As a general rule, pretend that the solos in the MM1 do not exist - even the ones that are powerful enough to challenge a party of PCs (Dracolich) are an incredibly annoying grind-fest. On the other hand unless you have a party with a specialised controller, the minions aren't too bad. (Someone starts laying down big bursts and MV minions can survive-ish). Standards... are usable but a lot less challenging with damage from 8+1/2level falling behind 8+level over time.