D&D General Ignoring the rules!

[pemerton]

They understand "this wizard can cast 4th level spells" or "that fighter gets 2 attacks" just fine. i don't think the distinction is as "under the hood" as you are suggesting.

I don't agree that they can tell the fighter gets 2 attacks. Attack rolls are a mechanical phenomenon, but not in the fiction, which is just a melee in which some are more puissant than others. (Ranged attacks, especially if ammunition is tracked, break this somewhat - they always have a tendency not to fit with D&D's rather abstract combat system.)

4th level spells are probably not extricable from the fiction.

 

[Retros_x]

That is the point, nothing out weighs the other, its just all adventure to pursue naturally as to what is interesting to the characters first and players second. XP turns that on its head, determines optimal paths, places player interest over character.

How does that happen? Normally players don't know what the optimal path is in terms of exp, because most times they don't know what lies ahead of each choice they make. With milestones - they do actually know what the optimal path is. Everything that has a chance of driving forward the main goal or the metagoal. So they are incentived to only do these actions. With exp they know whatever they choose to do there is a chance of some exp gaining. Exp stops becoming a choice defining factor, at least in my games it played out that way. Thats why I use milestones for more linear and structured games, where I want to incentive specific sort of actions.

I don't need a carrot to get them to do things the way I want them to do it.

The carrot is there anyway, if you use it or not. Its nice that you don't care about class levels, but most players do.

 

[GrimCo]

It really depends how you do milestone leveling. For instance, my friend bases it on sessions played. You level up after every 3 sessions. So you start first session at lv1, fourth session at lv2, seventh at lv 3 and so on. It's predictive to fault and disconnected from things happening in game. Personally, i tend to go by table feeling ( i know my players very well). I give them enough time to get familiar and explore new powers they gained, try them out in different scenarios and when i see they developed routine, they level up. Rinse and repeat.

 

[Oofta]

...

The carrot is there anyway, if you use it or not. Its nice that you don't care about class levels, but most players do.

What carrot? Maybe I'm missing your point, and I could clarify a bit. I basically have people level up every X sessions which is enough time to get through my bite sized story arcs and up to a week or so in-game time. They've chosen what they want to pursue and how to do it, each individual plays their character any way they want. Want to stay in the back where they (falsely, much of the time) think they'll be safe? Go for it.

As far as levels, I never said they were unimportant. How we get there is not important, but people like to see levels increase as they play. But I'm not rewarding them for anything like killing monsters or getting gold, we're just telling a story of growth for the members of the group.

 

[payn]

How does that happen? Normally players don't know what the optimal path is in terms of exp, because most times they don't know what lies ahead of each choice they make. With milestones - they do actually know what the optimal path is. Everything that has a chance of driving forward the main goal or the metagoal. So they are incentived to only do these actions. With exp they know whatever they choose to do there is a chance of some exp gaining. Exp stops becoming a choice defining factor, at least in my games it played out that way. Thats why I use milestones for more linear and structured games, where I want to incentive specific sort of actions.

The campaign style will dictate, I agree with that. In an adventure path, driving the story forward is a feature. The open world meta game should allow any path that builds towards the goal. The open nature is directly interfered with by XP in my experience. I assume you are signposting as GM, otherwise do your level 1 PCs just walk blindly into higher level buzzsaws? This is where the xp rears its head in the discussion. "Can we handle level 4 bogswamp before we completely clear level 2 foothill?" I find the answers are always what does XP and level tell the players? Even when they have piles of clues in one direction, or time dictates the other in severity. The path isnt organically narrative, becasue the game function informs that the chronological answer is always dictated by XP.

I'll also note that I prefer a more serial modern take on adventure design, so its more important to me that players are driven by character, plot, and setting decisions. I do not like episodic west march style of play where the adventures are quick, disconnected, and use skill play as a focus. YMMV.

 

[Oofta]

I remember ye olden' days when a player would be close to leveling and ask "Can I just go hunt down and kill a goblin?" It's one of the reasons I stopped using XP. Yes, in order to get better at combat it makes sense that some of your training and growth likely has to be combat, but there's a lot more to it than just that.

Of course it also comes down to what purpose leveling (with or without XP or goals) has.

 

[Laurefindel]

BPS damage? Gone! It’s weapon damage and that’s all there is. Skeletons can have their own special cases where arrows deal half and maces deal double. Spears and quarterstaves deal regular damage like swords, but big axes act like mauls in that case.

XP? Gone! Levelling by chapter, with foreknowledge of when it can be expected and where its likely to stop.

Alignment? Gone! Just play your character. If you want to use alignment for your own, go for it. Only rule: don’t be a jerk to others players.

I’m sure I’ve got more but these are the obvious ones

 

[Lanefan]

The campaign style will dictate, I agree with that. In an adventure path, driving the story forward is a feature. The open world meta game should allow any path that builds towards the goal. The open nature is directly interfered with by XP in my experience. I assume you are signposting as GM, otherwise do your level 1 PCs just walk blindly into higher level buzzsaws?

They certainly can; and while some nasty elements and places are "signposted" not all of them are, and if they get in over thier heads and don't quickly turn tail and run (for which there's almost always an opportunity) they're hosed.

This is where the xp rears its head in the discussion. "Can we handle level 4 bogswamp before we completely clear level 2 foothill?" I find the answers are always what does XP and level tell the players? Even when they have piles of clues in one direction, or time dictates the other in severity. The path isnt organically narrative, becasue the game function informs that the chronological answer is always dictated by XP.

This doesn't mesh somehow.

In-character, it only makes sense that the characters are going to - if given a choice - try to take on challenges they have reason to think they can handle, while leaving those they don't think they can handle to someone else.

I mean, if you're a 2nd-level party (any edition) and you've heard rumours about a band of Orcs raiding the highway, a band of Giants marauding in the mountains, and an ancient Lich stirring again in her tower - and assuming your party has a collective wisdom higher than that of a gas tank - which of those missions are you gonna take on?

That decision has nothing whatsoever to do with available xp or any other meta-concerns; it's an in-character decision based on what the characters think they can handle...and if they do decide to go after the Giants or the Lich then so be it; and we'll remember those characters fondly provided they've named us in their wills.

 

[Lanefan]

I remember ye olden' days when a player would be close to leveling and ask "Can I just go hunt down and kill a goblin?" It's one of the reasons I stopped using XP. Yes, in order to get better at combat it makes sense that some of your training and growth likely has to be combat, but there's a lot more to it than just that.

Meta though it might seem, this is one thing I've never minded; as I've always assumed the characters themselves can at least vaguely feel when they're coming due for another round of training and might need that one last little push off the cliff.

 

[Bayushi_seikuro]

I’m sure I’m not alone in ignoring carrying capacity/encumbrance

I like the 1e paladin restrictions on magic items for encumbrance: The character may never retain more than ten magic items: 1 suit of armour; 1 shield; 4 weapons; 4 others.