D&D General Ignoring the rules!

Interesting food for thought. PF2 still has XP even though Paizo really ran with the milestone idea since PF1/PFS. The system has been simplified to basically 100 XP for every level. There isnt individual payouts, reductions for MC, costs for magic items, etc... Im curious if this is enough for folks that like to use XP? For example, I love alignment and am bummed at its declined state in 5E. Like XP, if I want to do anything above the basics, I gotta do it myself. I suppose a mention is better than a complete removal...

On the other hand, while (dis)advantage wasnt unheard of in fantasy RPGs, its a major componant of 5E. Not a legacy item but a new mechanic thats taken well to most folks since 5E dropped. So, I think the change needs to meet two crtieria. First, it needs to have a percieved value to ease of use. (dis)advantage is not complicated and easy to apply in most situations. PF2 XP takes very little calculation and is applied easily. Second, it has to feel right from a legacy perspective.

The second bit isnt as impenetrable as you might think. For example, PF2 remaster is completely removing alignment and using just ability mods instead of scores. I dont think that would have flown back in '09. Though, after 4E and 5E basically all but removed alignment from the game, folks have lightened up on the demand for its inclusion. I started back in the days of skill play where XP was a sort of gold star sticker for not getting your PC killed. I've moved on to meta plot adventure style of play thats not quite neotrade but leaning that way. I think milestone would have worked fine in 2E, and certainly in 3E, but folks were not ready for it yet. Tides have changed on that sentiment.
I remember seeing similar flat math per level experience systems back in the d20 days along with in various non-dnd games going back even further & thought they work fine enough to not cause chafing or anything as long as the values are not so low that the benefits of experience are erased (ie like if it were ten points per level & the GM feels the need to give out fractions of a point sometimes).

Personally I kinda like how 2e's style better. It had different advancement rates for different classes & how the rate would sometimes invert depending on the classes being compared. It had benefits in how it was extended further into gains from leveling & expected risks
 

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That leads to the question; would XP be used if it wasn't "grandfathered" in? Let's say hypothetically, milestone had been the default since the start, and XP was a construct of 5e. Does anyone use that optional rule? I bet many fewer people do. Does that mean it's impressive that milestone has overcome that hurdle to the extent it has?

I think there are a few examples of mechanics and rules that are grandfathered into the system, that wouldn't be nearly as popular if they were a new feature in 5e.

Reinforces the idea that people like, in D&D, what they started with. Which means 5e will fundamentally change D&D for decades to come.
Start with why so many brought up punishment both times someone said they ignore milestones & use experience in this tghread? I think that d&d would need to be a very different game for it to reverse cleanly. Fate makes for a good example of the reverse because advancement recovery & a few other things are linked to different varieties of milestone that are based on what has been accomplished in game so no amount of deliberate time wasting for minor milestones will eventually add up to a significant or major milestone. When people bring up switching it to experience you wind up with headscratching & confusion (like here).

I wonder why there is so much passion behind the milestone vs xp debate. When you think about it, in many cases they are functionally the same. For example; most DMs, that I know of, award XP out of combat which means XP is awarded by DM fiat. Milestone is awarded by DM fiat. Even if XP is only awarded for combat, the DM is in full control of that too. Even if following prescribed XP per monster, the DM controls the monsters. Murderhobo of innocents isn't going to be relevant XP source past the first few levels.

It feels like tribalism over, possibly, the least influencial decision a group can make in regards to the game as a whole. In both "systems" the DM controls all the levers. Both systems amount to "DM tells me when I level."

It actually boggles my mind.

EDIT: This has nothing to do with the conversation you were having. Its just a thought that I had when reading your comment.
Perceived Unfairness and catharsis. If someone feels they are being treated unfairly with how experience is awarded it's rare that the incident is so egregious that venting those frustrations in the moment will do anything but blowback. Claiming that someone else is punishing their players or using a mechanic for punishment later allows catharsis without the blowback. Going the other way you have the reverse from the target of that venting since they likely had nothing to do with the original sin.
 

That leads to the question; would XP be used if it wasn't "grandfathered" in? Let's say hypothetically, milestone had been the default since the start, and XP was a construct of 5e. Does anyone use that optional rule? I bet many fewer people do. Does that mean it's impressive that milestone has overcome that hurdle to the extent it has?

I think there are a few examples of mechanics and rules that are grandfathered into the system, that wouldn't be nearly as popular if they were a new feature in 5e.

Reinforces the idea that people like, in D&D, what they started with. Which means 5e will fundamentally change D&D for decades to come.

Nostalgia obviously is an influence (see the other thread), but it's not necessarily predictive. I stopped using XP after I had gotten back into DMing in the 2E era and I've never gone back.

For some people getting XP is like getting mini-rewards as they play; for me the play is all the reward I need as long as long I also see character growth now and then. Different people have different reward centers. Some people like to see the pennies accumulating in the piggy bank, I'd rather just get the money. Does nostalgia have much to do with it? Not sure. Video games give you badges as you play as mini rewards. I pay no attention to them, for others it's a motivating factor. I'm not going to yuck someone else's yum if they like getting XP.
 

Start with why so many brought up punishment both times someone said they ignore milestones & use experience in this thread
I have already bowed out of that conversation once, and have no intention of starting again. If you wish to know my opinion on it, it is clearly laid out in posts on pages 11 and 12 of this thread.

The second bit isnt as impenetrable as you might think. For example, PF2 remaster is completely removing alignment and using just ability mods instead of scores. I dont think that would have flown back in '09. Though, after 4E and 5E basically all but removed alignment from the game, folks have lightened up on the demand for its inclusion. I started back in the days of skill play where XP was a sort of gold star sticker for not getting your PC killed. I've moved on to meta plot adventure style of play thats not quite neotrade but leaning that way. I think milestone would have worked fine in 2E, and certainly in 3E, but folks were not ready for it yet. Tides have changed on that sentiment.

I think the sheer number of people joining the hobby during 5e, means D&D, and the hobby as a whole, are destined for more streamlining and simplification. I would be very surprised if we see a return to granular bonuses, or many of the other more "complex" mechanics of prior editions. I would also be surprised if D&D strayed from the power fantasy feel it has embraced in 5e.
 

I think the sheer number of people joining the hobby during 5e, means D&D, and the hobby as a whole, are destined for more streamlining and simplification. I would be very surprised if we see a return to granular bonuses, or many of the other more "complex" mechanics of prior editions. I would also be surprised if D&D strayed from the power fantasy feel it has embraced in 5e.
I agree. I think if you even look at the traditional line of D&D fandom its gone into at least three distinct places. The first is 5E which is a streamlined power fantasy system. The second is OSR, which is a streamlined traditional skill play focus. The Third is, PF2 which is a tactical character builder that has depth, but also designed to be streamlined. Seems they all have at least one thing in common in their design.
 

For some people getting XP is like getting mini-rewards as they play; for me the play is all the reward I need as long as long I also see character growth now and then. Different people have different reward centers. Some people like to see the pennies accumulating in the piggy bank, I'd rather just get the money. Does nostalgia have much to do with it? Not sure. Video games give you badges as you play as mini rewards. I pay no attention to them, for others it's a motivating factor. I'm not going to yuck someone else's yum if they like getting XP.

So this is a really interesting thought. XP as a means to ease pacing demands. Essentially, using XP as an upward beat. It lowers the burden on the DM to provide other upward beats. I wonder what percentage of the community finds XP satisfying in that way? And I wonder what percentage of DMs find that pacing aid helpful.
 

I wonder why there is so much passion behind the milestone vs xp debate. When you think about it, in many cases they are functionally the same. For example; most DMs, that I know of, award XP out of combat which means XP is awarded by DM fiat. Milestone is awarded by DM fiat. Even if XP is only awarded for combat, the DM is in full control of that too. Even if following prescribed XP per monster, the DM controls the monsters. Murderhobo of innocents isn't going to be relevant XP source past the first few levels.

It feels like tribalism over, possibly, the least influencial decision a group can make in regards to the game as a whole. In both "systems" the DM controls all the levers. Both systems amount to "DM tells me when I level."

It actually boggles my mind.

EDIT: This has nothing to do with the conversation you were having. Its just a thought that I had when reading your comment.
To tangent completely off what I was talking about before, since I really wasn't comparing the two, here's what I think are the divides between XP and Milestones. I'm sure this isn't comprehensive and there are more.

1. What they are given for. Milestones are usually given for completing, well, milestones. The party could "skip a lot" and still be given full XP. On the other side, XP is given for killing monsters, which means things like using resources to avoid an optional battle is a losing proposition. It engenders a "every battle that can be joined should be joined so we can level sooner" attitude.

2. Individual vs. Group. When people say Milestone, it's 95% of the time short for Milestone Leveling, which is just giving out a level. With that there's no reasonable way with that granularity to track individual contributions and/or attendance with XP bonuses, or even replacement characters being a lower level. (Milestone XP, where milestones are much more common and grant XP, avoid that, but are not a commonly seen tool.) In something like a West Marches game where player have a stable of characters they really need to be able to track individually.
 

To tangent completely off what I was talking about before, since I really wasn't comparing the two, here's what I think are the divides between XP and Milestones. I'm sure this isn't comprehensive and there are more.

1. What they are given for. Milestones are usually given for completing, well, milestones. The party could "skip a lot" and still be given full XP. On the other side, XP is given for killing monsters, which means things like using resources to avoid an optional battle is a losing proposition. It engenders a "every battle that can be joined should be joined so we can level sooner" attitude.
This is a good question. I do very much like the idea of an adventuring day. PF1 is still my fantasy RPG of choice. I design my adventures to be completed with a minimum of encounters, but with a higher total possible. For example, lets say a 5 room dungeon with a swamp that leads up to it. 12 encounters total. A very savvy group with good luck gets through it in 6-8 encounters. An average group playing conservatively gets through it in 9-10. A fumbling group with bad luck encounters all 12. You would think folks would intuit that completing your goals in fewest encounters would net the best results. However, I found that to my players more encounters equals more XP and treasure so all 12 would be painstakingly encountered. Even to the point of retreat, rest, and return. Even if the goal was met, they would return to uncover every possible encounter!

I also like to put forks in the road and give the players challenging, but interesting decisions. Go right and stop the hobgoblins as you were tasked to do, or go left and save the princess which you just found out is being kept in an old abandoned keep. Now, the choice is between duty and the seemingly right thing to save a defenseless person, but not to my XP hunting players! They would have a long conversation about how "convenient" the princess happens to be. That, surely its a trap of an area too high level to handle. Surely the best route is to take out the hobgoblins so that the party can score enough XP so they can then handle saving the princess. Duty and/or honor who cares?

After the above experiences I realized that XP was just interfering with what I wanted to accomplish as a GM. I want to put forth a challenge that is solvable in smart and unique ways, I dont want to produce piles of encoutners for the players to charge their characters into face first. I want them to act like actual characters in a story trying to resolve issues and face dangers seriously. Secondly, I want the players to think as their characters and be driven by their morals and reasoning. I want the RP in front of the G where the character matters and is not just an avatar to move around the board. (In addition, I find treaure for power exhausting as the players strip out the copper wire and plumbing of every dungeon for an extra gold piece at the end.)

Removing XP and going with milestone was the answer. It took a little time, but eventually the players began to focus on the narrative and goals before them. they also started caring what their characters thought about the situation and acted on it without fear of being behind or screwed out of treasure. It was much needed breath of fresh air and life into my RPG experience.

2. Individual vs. Group. When people say Milestone, it's 95% of the time short for Milestone Leveling, which is just giving out a level. With that there's no reasonable way with that granularity to track individual contributions and/or attendance with XP bonuses, or even replacement characters being a lower level. (Milestone XP, where milestones are much more common and grant XP, avoid that, but are not a commonly seen tool.) In something like a West Marches game where player have a stable of characters they really need to be able to track individually.
This one is more mechanical for me. I put a lot of effort into bringing my games alive. Worrying about every piddly XP point collected was just cognitive load wasted in my opinion. That was one less interesting map, or one fewer NPC to play, or a less interesting intriguing mystery placed before the players. Also, having mixed level parties was a total PITA. I either made the encoutner challenging for the top level player, thus making mincemeat out of the lower level ones, or the whole thing was a cake walk. The mix was like 1/3 right, 1/3 too easy, 1/3 TPK in waiting. With everyone on the same level, encoutner and adventure crafting bcame much more managable. (Interesting enough, PF2 made mixed level parties suicide by design!)

I really dont care if Billy comes late, or Suszie isnt brave enough with her character. I dont need to bait effort out of my players with XP. The rules are right before them. They pick locks because thats something a rogue can do. They convince NPCs because thats something bards can do. They kill tough monsters because thats what fighters do. etc... The mechanics are the toolkit for the players to engage the setting, the msyetieries, the political intrigue, the exploration! Lastly, I want them to work together and not worry about who gets what. Its a team game so group XP it is, and even better with milestone!
 

So this is a really interesting thought. XP as a means to ease pacing demands. Essentially, using XP as an upward beat. It lowers the burden on the DM to provide other upward beats. I wonder what percentage of the community finds XP satisfying in that way? And I wonder what percentage of DMs find that pacing aid helpful.
As a player, I definitely look forward to my next level. So the level, and at one remove the incremental XP leading to it, are seen as a reward. Regardless of the fact the the foes and challenges will also notch up, the feel and perception is a reward - so it is one, emotionally.

As a DM, levels are a pacing mechanism, with a lot of it around the scope of what they are facing/fixing. While still keeping in mind that the players do see it as a reward and trying not to give it too slowly. (I have caught myself doing this in more than one campaign.)

Oh, I like throwing non-level specific encounters at my party occasionally. The tougher ones make them analyze all combats, sometimes avoid them, and use tactics. The easier ones help remind them that they are heroes and how far you've come. If you've gained a few levels but you still need around an 8-9 on that d20 to hit and the foe still takes 3-4 hits to kill, sometimes it just feels like number inflation. But when you had a problem with a pair of ogres a few levels back, and now you just scythe through half a dozen of them, you feel like a champion!
 

Does the importance of complexity scale inversely with the importance of narrative?

What I mean is, do games have less need for mechanical complexity as the narrative part gains importance. And this would, theoretically, be because the brain is entertained by the narrative, and no longer needs the complexity to avoid boredom.

In the inverse situation, the narrative is lacking, so the complexity is what keeps it from being boring?

This isnt to say you can't have both, but just to state a general rule.
The conjectured general rule strikes me as implausible (assuming it's meant to generalise beyond you - I'm not going to try and gainsay your personal experience).
 

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