D&D 4E I'm confused - 4E and Essentials

Bagpuss

Legend
I've been lead to believe that Essentials does not replace 4th Ed and is compatible with it.

There are two new Fighter classes Knight (Defender) and Slayer (striker) in the first players Essentials book Heroes of the Fallen Lands. And now thanks to the Compendium update I can see them, but I still can't understand how they work.

Unlike the new fighter builds that appeared in Martial Power and the like (Battlerager, Tempest) etc, they aren't listed as part of the Fighter class, but a whole separate class. Yet the powers are listed as Fighter Utility (with the level they gain them, or no level in the case of the 1st level At-will stances).

Now the questions?

Can a PHB Fighter choose an Essentials Utility power, that has a matching name?

What rule if any stops a Essentials Knight or Slayer from picking a Fighter Daily power as suggested by the Character Advancement table on page 29 of the PHB?

The way they classes are currently put into the compendium is also weird, the powers are written twice, individually in the power descriptions but also in the class description.

So for example Clearheaded Fighter Utility 10, is a power in its own right, but also listed in the Slayer class as one of the powers he can choose from at 10th level. It is not however listed in the Knight's class description, implying to me the Knight cannot choose this power.

Is this the case with Essentials classes their choices are locked down to just four possible options (using 10th level Utility as an example), so not only can they not use any previous 4th Ed Fighter utilities, they can't even use the Essentials Fighter Utilities of a different class? If so why did they call them Fighter Utilities and not Knight or Slayer Utilities?

I guess some of these questions are answered in the Essentials books, but I've not purchased them yet and I'm trying to gauge if they are even worth buying.
 

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Klaus

First Post
1 - Yes, every Fighter can take the powers listed as "Fighter Utility Level X" in the Slayer and Knight entries.

2 - Slayers and Fighters don't get Daily powers, so they can't chose them. They follow their own advancement table.

3 - Yes, the class entries are wonky looking. Every time you'd gain a new stance, the Compendium lists all the stances again.

4 - Knights, Slayers, Battleragers, Tempests, etc, all can choose their Utilities from any book (Essentials, PHB, Martial Power...), as long as they meet the prerequisite. I think the utilities are listed under the classes because they are supposed to reinforce their roles.
 

Bagpuss

Legend
2 - Slayers and Fighters don't get Daily powers, so they can't chose them. They follow their own advancement table.

Is the table in the book as it isn't listed in the Compendium that I can see. In the Compendium it mention nothing for what happens at level 5, when they would normally get a new daily. Since 4E is meant to be exclusion based rules, the normal rule of getting a daily at level 5 would apply unless something explicitly states that doesn't happen, I can find nothing in the class description to say they don't get one.

4 - Knights, Slayers, Battleragers, Tempests, etc, all can choose their Utilities from any book (Essentials, PHB, Martial Power...), as long as they meet the prerequisite. I think the utilities are listed under the classes because they are supposed to reinforce their roles.

Is this actually written anywhere? As in the compendium, it seems to rule that you can only gain from "one of the following powers" if you are a Slayer or Knight. Also as Slayer and Knight are separate classes in the compendium and not Fighter variants as the Tempest and Battlerager, do their powers fall under "powers in your class description" for the Fighter as per picking powers (page 27/28 PHB)?
 

Klaus

First Post
Yes, the table is in the book (which I don't have yet, but the table was also in the preview of the Slayer in the WotC site).

EDIT: Here's the table: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/dramp/20100806 . The Slayer gets Mighty Slayer at Level 5.

And during the previews it was said that any build of a certain class could take powers that had a level, like "Utility 2".

EDIT: And here's the preview spelling this out: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/dramp/20100709

As fighters, the slayer and the knight can both take feats, powers, and abilities that require the fighter character class. However, they also have class features and unique powers that other fighters cannot take. The rules for sorting this out are simple. If a class gives you a power that has a level in its stat block, you can swap that power for one of the same type (at-will, encounter, daily, or utility) and the same or lower level. If the power doesn’t have a level, you can’t swap it for a different power.
 
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Lord Xtheth

First Post
Let me try to help with this. Take note, that I'm not saying I know more than anyone else, but I'll help you look at the RAW of the matter.

The classes in HotFL are written up as their own classes. I belive this is done on purpose, so you can be either a fighter, a fighter variant, or one of the "essential fighters". As far as their powers go, the RAW has it stated that those powers are the powers they get to chose from... and doesn't refference any other powers. Normal fighters can chose essential powers because their rules cover the "Fighter (action) (level) format.

Each essentials class has it's own XP chart including breakdown of when powers, feats, and abilities are achieved, which supersedes the PHB chart.

(I might be missing a question, I'll submit what I got, re-read the questions and come back and edit in the answers)
 

Vaeron

Explorer
The classes in HotFL are written up as their own classes. I belive this is done on purpose, so you can be either a fighter, a fighter variant, or one of the "essential fighters". As far as their powers go, the RAW has it stated that those powers are the powers they get to chose from... and doesn't refference any other powers. Normal fighters can chose essential powers because their rules cover the "Fighter (action) (level) format.

Each essentials class has it's own XP chart including breakdown of when powers, feats, and abilities are achieved, which supersedes the PHB chart.

Sadly, not a single piece of this is correct. HotFL and the Rules Compendium both reinforce what has always been true of power aquisition and power swaps, etc: If the class matches, the power type matches, and the level matches, any power can be taken. If it doesn't have a level, the level doesn't match, or the class doesn't match, it can't be taken. That's the same rule that's been in play for all of 4e.

So, I will quote what is printed in a huge sidebar box right in the middle of the Levelling Up chapter of HoFL:

"OTHER SOURCES: Other Dungeons & Dragons supplements, including D&D Insider, offer additional powers that you can choose from. Whenever you choose a new class power, you can select it from the list presented in this book or you can take a power of the same class, level, and type (attack or utility) from another source.

For example: when your slayer reaches 2nd level, you could select a 2nd-level fighter utility power from a source other than this book or you could choose one of the 2nd level fighter utility powers in the "Knight" section of this book."

So, for example, Fighter Utility couldn't be taken since it has no level and is aquired in a particular way. But Fighter Utility 2 could be picked up in exchange for any other Fighter Utility 2.

The rules in Essentials 4e explicitly state that powers can be taken from ANY other player sourcebook, so I wish people wouldn't spread this contradictory information around, innocently or no.
 

DracoSuave

First Post
You're misconstruing what he said.

Slayers and Knights do not have the ability to take the fighter's attack powers, as that is not an option for them. Therefore 'whenever you choose a new class power' doesn't happen at those times.

If the class has a choice of a power at a given level, they may take a power from any eligible source. If the class does not have the choice of a power at a given level, then they may not.
 

DracoSuave

First Post
You're misconstruing what he said.

Slayers and Knights do not have the ability to take the fighter's attack powers, as that is not an option for them. Therefore 'whenever you choose a new class power' doesn't happen at those times.

If the class has a choice of a power at a given level, they may take a power from any eligible source. If the class does not have the choice of a power at a given level, then they may not.
 


Shin Okada

Explorer
Well, it is not specific to this case but, trying to understand some rule, or especially rule structure, only with DDi Compendium is impractical.

It lacks a lot of sidebars such as the one mentioned above, or step by step descriptions. Read books.

Also, many of the DDi contents contradict to the rule books and/or combination of rule books plus update.

While DDi is useful to quickly check something, it is often even not accurate on each issues. And certainly clumsy to describe the structure of rules.

Read the books (and update documents). That is the way to go.
 

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